Comments on: A Tale of Two Bibles: A Necessary Clarification and Caution http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/ Devoted to authentic Lutheranism Wed, 23 May 2012 21:13:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: ptmccain http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/comment-page-1/#comment-6246 ptmccain Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:31:14 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=1388#comment-6246 Thank you Rus. I now have another specific name to add to my list of friends in the ELCA for whom I'm praying. God bless! Thank you Rus. I now have another specific name to add to my list of friends in the ELCA for whom I’m praying. God bless!

]]> By: Rus http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/comment-page-1/#comment-6244 Rus Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:46:38 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=1388#comment-6244 As an ELCA pastor I would love to argue with you over whether or not the ELCA is an orthodox Lutheran body any longer. But sadly, we are probably on the same side of this issue. The Lutheran Study Bible (Augsburg) is just another sign of how much of a travesty Lutheran theology in the ELCA has become. I will not, and cannot leave the ELCA as a church leader. After all, if all of us who still submit to the Lordship of Christ leave the ELCA what then will it further mutate into? But pray for those of us who stand up for the trivial things like Sola Scriptura in the face of "Lutheran" leadership that takes a vast majority of it's theological cues from human secularism. As an ELCA pastor I would love to argue with you over whether or not the ELCA is an orthodox Lutheran body any longer. But sadly, we are probably on the same side of this issue. The Lutheran Study Bible (Augsburg) is just another sign of how much of a travesty Lutheran theology in the ELCA has become. I will not, and cannot leave the ELCA as a church leader. After all, if all of us who still submit to the Lordship of Christ leave the ELCA what then will it further mutate into? But pray for those of us who stand up for the trivial things like Sola Scriptura in the face of “Lutheran” leadership that takes a vast majority of it’s theological cues from human secularism.

]]> By: Henry Malone http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/comment-page-1/#comment-6126 Henry Malone Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:21:53 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=1388#comment-6126 Joe you miss one very defining point that Jesus would demand. He says you are truly my disciple if you obey my commandments. He views all of the scriptures as God's Word and that He is both the message and the messanger. You may believe in Jesus and not believe Jesus. I think St. Paul makes it clear that both are required. The Lutheran principles of grace alone, faith alone and scripture alone are the foundation. Scripture is to inturpet scripture. Righteousness is required of Christians because it is our love response to God. To deliberately sin is not only to test God, but to deliberately fall from grace. Our opinions mean nothing, God's Word does not lie and stands firm. Let everyman be a liar, this does not change the Word of God. Righteousness is how we return God's love. Sin is still and abomination. God's moral law is not up for vote. It is not just the letter of the Law I am speaking to. The letter of the Gospel must not be changed to allow sin to abound. Joe you miss one very defining point that Jesus would demand. He says you are truly my disciple if you obey my commandments. He views all of the scriptures as God’s Word and that He is both the message and the messanger. You may believe in Jesus and not believe Jesus. I think St. Paul makes it clear that both are required. The Lutheran principles of grace alone, faith alone and scripture alone are the foundation. Scripture is to inturpet scripture. Righteousness is required of Christians because it is our love response to God. To deliberately sin is not only to test God, but to deliberately fall from grace. Our opinions mean nothing, God’s Word does not lie and stands firm. Let everyman be a liar, this does not change the Word of God. Righteousness is how we return God’s love. Sin is still and abomination. God’s moral law is not up for vote. It is not just the letter of the Law I am speaking to. The letter of the Gospel must not be changed to allow sin to abound.

]]> By: Joe http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/comment-page-1/#comment-5421 Joe Thu, 21 May 2009 18:00:10 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=1388#comment-5421 At some point in the near future I would like to have a conversation with you about the differences and similarities of the ELCA and LCMS church bodies. I think one of the great things about being a Lutheran (and most difficult sometimes) is that our church is built on three principals - the rest is open for interpretation and is kinda grey. As I am sure you know these are 1. Law and Gospel 2. Justification by grace through faith 3. Theology of the Cross What you are proclaiming sounds like law and no Gospel, it sounds like you are making the judgment on people and not leaving that to God. We are called to proclaim the Gospel to all, at least that's what I am called to do. I for one love the ecumenical relationships that the ELCA is making because it provides opportunity to minister to one another. If you have not looked around recently our churches as main line Protestant denomination is dying and pretty soon we all will have to join together just to exist. Instead of making the church look exclusive we should be inclusive because we all are saints and sinners and we need to come together to welcome anyone who walks through our doors, otherwise we are not doing what Jesus or Luther has called the church to do and to be. At some point in the near future I would like to have a conversation with you about the differences and similarities of the ELCA and LCMS church bodies. I think one of the great things about being a Lutheran (and most difficult sometimes) is that our church is built on three principals – the rest is open for interpretation and is kinda grey. As I am sure you know these are

1. Law and Gospel
2. Justification by grace through faith
3. Theology of the Cross

What you are proclaiming sounds like law and no Gospel, it sounds like you are making the judgment on people and not leaving that to God. We are called to proclaim the Gospel to all, at least that’s what I am called to do.

I for one love the ecumenical relationships that the ELCA is making because it provides opportunity to minister to one another. If you have not looked around recently our churches as main line Protestant denomination is dying and pretty soon we all will have to join together just to exist. Instead of making the church look exclusive we should be inclusive because we all are saints and sinners and we need to come together to welcome anyone who walks through our doors, otherwise we are not doing what Jesus or Luther has called the church to do and to be.

]]> By: ptmccain http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/comment-page-1/#comment-5169 ptmccain Sat, 16 May 2009 14:16:36 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=1388#comment-5169 <a href="#comment-5168" rel="nofollow">@Earl Janssen</a> Earl, thanks for your thoughts. I grieve the direction the ELCA has chosen to head and while I understand why and how you feel offended by The LCMS' declaration that the ELCA can not be regarded to be an orthodox Lutheran church, we feel it is our duty to speak this truth, to all who will listen. The fact that the ELCA is headed, in what appears to be a headlong and foregone conclusion, into accepting, advancing and encouraging homosexuality and gay marriage is a great tragedy. The many ecumenical agreements the ELCA has reached and by which it has set aside our confessional commitments is particularly painful. We know for a fact, by the way, that AF began its development of its study Bible only relatively recently. Our project was well established, underway and publicly announced long before AF began its work. This is simply a matter of fact, not conjecture. In my opinion, the relatively scant notes in the ELCA Bible bespeak the haste with which this Bible was produced. I have told everyone I know that they must buy both Bibles, for never before has there been such a clarifying moment to help everyone see and understand the very deep and critical differences between our two church bodies. When a church that uses the name "Lutheran" can not even get the Great Commission right, this is an important opportunity truly to consider just where the theological direction the ELCA has headed ultimately leads. Thanks for your comments. @Earl Janssen
Earl, thanks for your thoughts. I grieve the direction the ELCA has chosen to head and while I understand why and how you feel offended by The LCMS’ declaration that the ELCA can not be regarded to be an orthodox Lutheran church, we feel it is our duty to speak this truth, to all who will listen. The fact that the ELCA is headed, in what appears to be a headlong and foregone conclusion, into accepting, advancing and encouraging homosexuality and gay marriage is a great tragedy. The many ecumenical agreements the ELCA has reached and by which it has set aside our confessional commitments is particularly painful.

We know for a fact, by the way, that AF began its development of its study Bible only relatively recently. Our project was well established, underway and publicly announced long before AF began its work. This is simply a matter of fact, not conjecture. In my opinion, the relatively scant notes in the ELCA Bible bespeak the haste with which this Bible was produced.

I have told everyone I know that they must buy both Bibles, for never before has there been such a clarifying moment to help everyone see and understand the very deep and critical differences between our two church bodies.

When a church that uses the name “Lutheran” can not even get the Great Commission right, this is an important opportunity truly to consider just where the theological direction the ELCA has headed ultimately leads.

Thanks for your comments.

]]> By: Earl Janssen http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/comment-page-1/#comment-5168 Earl Janssen Sat, 16 May 2009 14:06:38 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=1388#comment-5168 Thank you for opening the comments section. I suspect that you had to consider long and hard about how to refer to "Lutheran Study Bible" (Augsburg Fortress) and contrast it with "The Lutheran Study Bible" (Concordia). It seems to me that your choice in no way advances any shared ministry our two denominations might have or hope for, but rather continues to press for distance. (Yes, this is in accord with Resolution 3-21A of the 2001 Convention of the LCMS in which the LCMS does not recognize the ELCA as an orthodox Lutheran church. I understand that.) Yes, the two study Bibles come from very different understandings of Biblical interpretation. Of that there is no doubt and you are right to alert LCMS pastors and laity of the differences. I'll certainly be doing the same in the ELCA congregation I serve. Your post makes it sound like the production of Lutheran Study Bible (Augsburg Fortress) was a very recent project while The Lutheran Study Bible (Concordia) has been a lengthy process (6 years). We know that the production of any study Bible is a project that is not accomplished quickly. Just because you learned of it a year ago does not mean that it is somehow deficient. Earl Janssen Thank you for opening the comments section.

I suspect that you had to consider long and hard about how to refer to “Lutheran Study Bible” (Augsburg Fortress) and contrast it with “The Lutheran Study Bible” (Concordia). It seems to me that your choice in no way advances any shared ministry our two denominations might have or hope for, but rather continues to press for distance. (Yes, this is in accord with Resolution 3-21A of the 2001 Convention of the LCMS in which the LCMS does not recognize the ELCA as an orthodox Lutheran church. I understand that.) Yes, the two study Bibles come from very different understandings of Biblical interpretation. Of that there is no doubt and you are right to alert LCMS pastors and laity of the differences. I’ll certainly be doing the same in the ELCA congregation I serve.

Your post makes it sound like the production of Lutheran Study Bible (Augsburg Fortress) was a very recent project while The Lutheran Study Bible (Concordia) has been a lengthy process (6 years). We know that the production of any study Bible is a project that is not accomplished quickly. Just because you learned of it a year ago does not mean that it is somehow deficient.

Earl Janssen

]]> By: ptmccain http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/04/01/a-tale-of-two-bibles-a-necessary-clarification-and-caution/comment-page-1/#comment-5165 ptmccain Sat, 16 May 2009 13:29:48 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=1388#comment-5165 Sorry about the comment issue here on this post. I think I got it fixed now and comment are open. Sorry about the comment issue here on this post. I think I got it fixed now and comment are open.

]]>