It’s not even very good dancing. And mercy, why did whomever choreographed the thing think it was a good idea to have the ladies bend at the waist w/ their backs to the congregation?!?

I’m sure they worked hard getting the thing rehearsed and did so out of love for their church, but BLECH.

It’s an ELCA church: http://www.holycrosstr.com/church/njsynod.htm which explains some of it, but I know this kind of “liturgical dance” is sometimes done in LCMS churches, too. Blech, again.

Poorly done BLECH. Not coordinated with one another at all. And it looks like they’re just doing stretch exercises!

This is great! Such an effective way to convey your feelings, and we all know that feelings are what church is all about.

NO! I echo the “BLECH” sentiments.

At an LCMS church quite a few years ago, the Children’s Christmas program committee had to deal with “liturgical dance.” A member of the church who was a dance instructor in town wanted to do something like that with the children. I was on the committee and very skeptical of this being done in the nave of the church. When I approached the pastor about my concern, he responded, ” What about artistic expression?” I was saddened by his response, but not surprised. So, this so-called “liturgical dance” went forward and I ended up observing girls from the ages of 6 to 12 doing high leg kicks down the center aisle. It was so tasteless and without reverence. It still saddens me when I think of it.

You know there are cultures, in their context, where some dance in the Liturgy may be appropriate. I’m thinking of the fabled Kenyan dancing up the offering plates that I have heard about… These cultures more subtly understand and know about dance and what is and is not appropriate. The context is usually joy (a context for dance I see in the Bible)

In our culture, most forms of dance are mating rituals or emphasize the beauty of the dancer’s form while telling a story (Ballet). Our cultural forms do not adapt well to the Divine Service, even our highest culture dancing focuses the attention of the watchers on the dancer.

In the end the result is just sad, a bit sensuous (thus out of place), and lets not even start about poorly done actions within the liturgy as the video attests to.

I’ll keep with the “BLECH” theme. Hand motions are a great thing with little kids, but are just awkward in this case. I hate not being able to sing along with songs (that’s one reason I’m in the choir), so things like this are just plain BORING. You just sit and twiddle your thumbs waiting for it to be over. I guess it gives you time to meditate on the words, since I surely would not want to watch that dance. Or at least you can read all the bulletin announcements.

Out of pure ignorance, what is the purpose of liturgical dance? I have heard of it too, but that is the first time I have seen it. But before making rash judgment, I don’t know why it is done or the Scriptual\ Historical basis for it.

I couldn’t watch the whole thing because it was just too lame, I got 47 seconds into though and one word kept repeating over and over in my mind “WHY?” I really don’t get it, what’s the point? It conveyed nothing at all of the gospel as far as I can tell. I will go along with the consensus “BLECH”

I agree with Larry. WHY? I see no point in this. It doesn’t seem to be pointing to the Redeemer. It doesn’t seem to be anything more than stretch exercises. Besides the very large BLECH factor I share, if there were some rational explanation or justification for this other than “Look at us, aren’t we great!” I would love to hear it.

@Kyle

Yeah – that was pretty bad. The only time I’ve actually ever seen dance used in a service ‘in person’ was during a business trip that had me in Rochester, NY for a Sunday, so I attended a church on Sunday morning that had a rather sizable Somali population in attendance; during the “offertory music” time one of the Somali women did a dance “routine” (I’m not sure what you’d call it) to a West African ‘hymn’ (?) She used various colored scarves to represent the story of the hymn (I recall it being during Lent – so the scarves went from shades of purple to scarlet). I found that performance rather moving.

I didn’t watch this one long enough to see whether or not they used “Jazz Hands” at any point. (“Chaaa…”)

I’m trying to be civil and put the best construction on this debacle, but it isn’t easy. Truthfully, this just depresses me. I’m grieved that any church thinks this stuff belongs in the divine service. We should all pray daily that God will continue to strengthen His Church despite our silliness.

Yeah, I’ve seen better, but still, wasn’t it David (with just his linen ephod) who got it right and not Michal? 2 Sam 6.5, 14-23

Mark,
I appreciate your trying to justify this seemingly pointless display by referencing King David, but just because David did something that was pleasing to the Lord does not mean it is always a good thing or that we, as Christians today, have a right or excuse to do something because he did it. I’m sure it would appall all Christians if a church started offering sacrifices (not the Roman perversion of the Mass) on the altar and sprinkling the worshippers with the blood.

I wasn’t able to get all the way through it, either. I am not as civil as Debra above, and am sorry to be so blunt, but the song made me shudder, and I thought the whole thing was just plain stupid.

Mark, should we take David’s example and do everything he did that was pleasing to the Lord? I’m sure Christians from all denominational backgrounds would find it appalling if some church, in the name of David, tied a bull onto the altar, slit its throat, collected the blood and sprinkeled it on the congregation. I appreciate your desire to be charitable in this regard, but invoking the actions of David do not justify or explain this practice. From what I could see it did nothing to proclaim Christ and Him crucified, it did hardly anything even to emphasize the song.

Filler, for the odd empty time slot in the service.
Looked more like sign language for the hearing impaired, but then again, not enough like sign language for the hearing impaired.
Not looking like dance is a good thing, IMO, but what it did look like wasn’t anything particularly good, nor enlightening, nor uplifting.
What, pray tell, is liturgical about it?

uh…..Really?

That is so shockingly lame and out of place I don’t really know what to say. And we wonder why the church is in trouble.

yes, i am trying to be charitable… we all have different gifts, and perhaps this is the best way these dancers have of expressing their praise (of course, this doesn’t mean it has to be performed in church…)
i’ve heard plenty of lousy choirs and horrible congregational singing, but we don’t want to stop that. I’m more appalled by bad preaching where the Gospel is not proclaimed

The YouTube sidebar classified this as “entertainment.”

Such dancing has no place in a Divine Service. The only two examples of dance in the OT was at the crossing of the Red Sea, and when David moved the Ark to Jerusalem. Both of these were once in a lifetime events, unique, and were not done in the context of a worship service. The entire community danced, not just a few performers. So, again, YouTube classified this correctly as “entertainment.”

these comments are more depressing than the dancing.

I would not want it in my church because I think it looks silly, but for goodness sakes, what doctrine is compromised here? is there any lack of reverence or respect shown? is there any base appeal to emotion?

No.

Lutherans do not condemn and bind consciences on matters of men. If this congregation finds beauty and peace in this harmless dancing, then it is right and proper. It shocks me how uncharitable so many, so called “confessional” Lutherans can be. Go read Luther’s “On Christian Freedom.”

Otherwise, rip down the banners, throw away the handbells, burn the decorations, bust up the stained glass, and lets all sit in empty sanctuaries, hawkishly watching each other to make sure nobody sits during the doxology and everybody does the sign of the cross.

I’ll save you all the trouble. See here who you sound like:

There are very many persons who, when they hear of this liberty of faith, straightway turn it into an occasion of licence. They think that everything is now lawful for them, and do not choose to show themselves free men and Christians in any other way than by their contempt and reprehension of ceremonies, of traditions, of human laws; as it they were Christians merely because they refuse to fast on stated days, or eat flesh when others fast, or omit the customary prayers; scoffing at the precepts of men, but utterly passing over all the rest that belongs to the Christian religion. On the other hand, they are most pertinaciously resisted by those who strive after salvation solely by their observance of and reverence for ceremonies, as they would be saved merely because they fast on stated days, or abstain from flesh, or make formal prayers; talking loudly of the precepts of the church and of the Fathers, and not caring a straw about those things which belong to our genuine faith. Both these parties are plainly culpable, in that, while they neglect matters which are of weight and necessary for salvation, they contend noisily about such as are without weight and not necessary.

How much more rightly does the Apostle Paul teach us to walk in the middle path condemning either extreme.

For neither party observes towards the other that charity which edifieth. in this matter we must listen to Scripture, which teaches us to turn aside neither to the right hand nor to the left, but to follow those right precepts of the Lord which rejoice the heart.

Boaz #20 wrote: “Lutherans do not condemn and bind consciences on matters of men. If this congregation finds beauty and peace in this harmless dancing, then it is right and proper. It shocks me how uncharitable so many, so called “confessional” Lutherans can be.”

I failed to see anyone who condemned (that is, said these people were sinning against God) this congregation for their dance. I read comments that said it was silly, not very well done, pointless, etc… Even YOU said it was silly, and that you did not want it in your church. If it is harmless, as you also stated, why don’t you want it? Perhaps it is only the likes of US who are uncharitable in making the same assessment.

If our only prerequisite for what is fitting for the Divine Service is that it causes no compromise in doctrine or that it is “harmless”, then bring in the jugglers, clowns, penny whistles, and tap shoes. Put away albs and chasubles and put on hockey jerseys. You can’t condemn these, can you? They are not evil, are they? What doctrine is compromised by my Red Wings jersey (especially fitting for Pentecost!)?

If you want to defend poor and unfitting practices in a Divine Service in the name of Christian freedom, I guess that is your right. Just don’t call it Lutheran.

The point is not whether or not something is harmless. The point is whether a practice points us to Jesus Christ and teaches us the gospel. I fail to see how liturgical dance does that. I also do not think it is reverent. It seems to be much more about the dancers than it is about Jesus. (If you disagree, please explain how this points us to Jesus.)

By the way, I echo the question: What makes this “liturgical”? What is the point?

Rev. T. Schroeder

Psalm 149

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with tambourine and harp.

Boaz, my sentiments exactly.

I don’t think anyone here has objected to people dancing in general, only its place in the Divine Service. You can praise Him with dancing today just as was done in the OT. That doesn’t mean it is appropriate in the Divine Service, let alone a blanket justification for any kind of dancing during worship. An appropriate dance could be done at a special event or even after you wake up in the morning.

I know nothing of ancient dance styles or if anything survives of them but I would imagine that if dancing was incorporated into worship in the OT it would have been a style that pointed to God and not the dancer and had a connotation of praise to God as opposed to dances that may be done for different occasions like a wedding or harvest. I doubt any dancing with roots outside praising God, i.e. any secular or foreign style, would have been used during worship. I may be wrong. If anyone knows of a reference to a style of dancing used both in worship at the temple and in nonreligious settings I would be very interested.

Since most of Western culture does not have any styles of dance with roots in worship it is difficult to compare dance in a modern church to any dancing that may have taken place in the temple in the OT. If there was a dance style that could be recognized as something used in Christian worship and complements the service that could be good but I don’t know of any. Any dance style that is used primarily in other settings, e.g. an exhibition or on a date, would bring with it connotations of that setting and detract from the service rather than add to it. Dance does not have the same place in all cultures and not all dancing is the same. This can make comparisons difficult.

I don’t think stating that David danced would be sufficient to justify having the Lambada during a service. That example is extreme granted, but it helps to examine why it is insufficient justification in that case and what would be sufficient in another case. Sexual connotations in the Lambada would clash with keeping sex within a marriage and expose members to temptation. It would draw the focus off of God and to impure thoughts. I do not know of any references to types of dance done during worship at the temple in the OT but they would be the only helpful references from the OT regarding types of dancing in worship today. An important guideline in determining the appropriateness of a dance during worship that has been stated by others is whether it points to Christ or not. It must not only be inoffensive to doctrine but supportive if it is to have a place during a worship service. Dancing to praise God outside of service, especially just by yourself could be held to the lower standard of just not conflicting with doctrine. The Lambada in a public setting would not be good, but in a private setting thanking God for your spouse and praising Him, even it may be appropriate in such a setting.

I don’t think anyone here has objected to people dancing in general, only its place in the Divine Service. You can praise Him with dancing today just as was done in the OT. That doesn’t mean it is appropriate in the Divine Service, let alone a blanket justification for any kind of dancing during worship. An appropriate dance could be done at a special event or even after you wake up in the morning.

I know nothing of ancient dance styles or if anything survives of them but I would imagine that if dancing was incorporated into worship in the OT it would have been a style that pointed to God and not the dancer and had a connotation of praise to God as opposed to dances that may be done for different occasions like a wedding or harvest. I doubt any dancing with roots outside praising God, i.e. any secular or foreign style, would have been used during worship. I may be wrong. If anyone knows of a reference to a style of dancing used both in worship at the temple and in nonreligious settings I would be very interested.

Since most of Western culture does not have any styles of dance with roots in worship it is difficult to compare dance in a modern church to any dancing that may have taken place in the temple in the OT. If there was a dance style that could be recognized as something used in Christian worship and complements the service that could be good but I don’t know of any. Any dance style that is used primarily in other settings, e.g. an exhibition or on a date, would bring with it connotations of that setting and detract from the service rather than add to it. Dance does not have the same place in all cultures and not all dancing is the same. This can make comparisons difficult.

I don’t think stating that David danced would be sufficient to justify having the Lambada during a service. Granted that example is extreme, but it helps to examine why it is insufficient justification in that case and what would be sufficient in another case. Sexual connotations in the Lambada would clash with keeping sex within a marriage and expose members to temptation. It would draw the focus off of God and to impure thoughts. I do not know of any references to types of dance done during worship at the temple in the OT but they would be the only helpful references from the OT regarding types of dancing in worship today. An important guideline in determining the appropriateness of a dance during worship that has been stated by others in previous comments is whether it points to Christ or not. It must not only be inoffensive to doctrine but supportive if it is to have a place during a worship service. Dancing to praise God outside of service, especially in private could be held to the lower standard of just not conflicting with doctrine. The Lambada in a public setting would not be good, but in a private setting thanking God for your spouse and praising Him, even it may be appropriate in such a setting.

I don’t think anyone here has objected to people dancing in general, only its place in the Divine Service. You can praise Him with dancing today just as was done in the OT. That doesn’t mean it is appropriate in the Divine Service, let alone a blanket justification for any kind of dancing during worship. An appropriate dance could be done at a special event or even after you wake up in the morning.

I know nothing of ancient dance styles or if anything survives of them but I would imagine that if dancing was incorporated into worship in the OT it would have been a style that pointed to God and not the dancer and had a connotation of praise to God as opposed to dances that may be done for different occasions like a wedding or harvest. I doubt any dancing with roots outside praising God, i.e. any secular or foreign style, would have been used during worship. I may be wrong. If anyone knows of a reference to a style of dancing used both in worship at the temple and in nonreligious settings I would be very interested.

Since most of Western culture does not have any styles of dance with roots in worship it is difficult to compare dance in a modern church to any dancing that may have taken place in the temple in the OT. If there was a dance style that could be recognized as something used in Christian worship and complements the service that could be good but I don’t know of any. Any dance style that is used primarily in other settings, e.g. an exhibition or on a date, would bring with it connotations of that setting and detract from the service rather than add to it. Dance does not have the same place in all cultures and not all dancing is the same. This can make comparisons difficult.

I don’t think stating that David danced would be sufficient to justify having the Lambada during a service. Granted that example is extreme, but it helps to examine why it is insufficient justification in that case and what would be sufficient in another case. Sexual connotations in the Lambada would clash with keeping sex within a marriage and expose members to temptation. It would draw the focus off of God and to impure thoughts. I do not know of any references to types of dance done during worship at the temple in the OT but they would be the only helpful references from the OT regarding types of dancing in worship today. An important guideline in determining the appropriateness of a dance during worship that has been stated by others in previous comments is whether it points to Christ or not. It must not only be inoffensive to doctrine but supportive if it is to have a place during a worship service. Dancing to praise God outside of service, especially in private could be held to the lower standard of just not conflicting with doctrine. The Lambada in a public setting would not be good, but in a private setting thanking God for your spouse and praising Him, even it may be appropriate in such a setting.

I don’t think stating that David danced would be sufficient to justify having the Lambada during a service. Granted that example is extreme, but it helps to examine why it is insufficient justification in that case and what would be sufficient in another case. Sexual connotations in the Lambada would clash with keeping sex within a marriage and expose members to temptation. It would draw the focus off of God and to impure thoughts. I do not know of any references to types of dance done during worship at the temple in the OT but they would be the only helpful references from the OT regarding types of dancing in worship today. An important guideline in determining the appropriateness of a dance during worship that has been stated by others in previous comments is whether it points to Christ or not. It must not only be inoffensive to the Gospel but supportive if it is to have a place during a worship service. Dancing to praise God outside of service, especially in private could be held to the lower standard of just not conflicting with doctrine. The Lambada in a public setting would not be good, but in a private setting thanking God for your spouse and praising Him, even it may be appropriate in such a setting.

I think the rest of my comment was caught in a spam filter. I broke it in two since it didn’t take the first time.

1. Can we use dance (or any other type of art) to convey the gospel?

Yes.

2. Should we, considering the culture we are in? (e.g. In Malawi, they dance a whole bunch in their churches. It’s a part of their culture.)

It would be difficult to see where it might fit in well in the divine service.

3. Like everything else in the worship setting, just as Jesus has given to us his best, we give him our best. What those women were doing was not the best. True dance uses forms and movements to convey a message. ‘Junk for Jesus’ dancing points up every time a song references God or Jesus. That’s not dancing. And it’s not art. It’s inept sign language with a mime exterior.

If you want art, then watch the Joffrey, or Martha Graham, or your local professional company. There you will see art and true dance. If only there were a way of translating that into worship which fits the three qualifications above.

Steve :
1. Can we use dance (or any other type of art) to convey the gospel?
Yes.
2. Should we, considering the culture we are in? (e.g. In Malawi, they dance a whole bunch in their churches. It’s a part of their culture.)
It would be difficult to see where it might fit in well in the divine service.

That’s the interesting part to me: when I was there to see the Somali dance during the service, it was something that really fit their culture and connected to the Somali worshippers in a way it didn’t connect to the American Midwesterner in the other pew. I’m sure they felt slightly the same way in singing the western style of hymn-singing.