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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Weak on Sanctification&#8221; is Not Something to be Proud About</title>
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	<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/</link>
	<description>Devoted to authentic Lutheranism</description>
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		<title>By: Lindsey</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8195</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8195</guid>
		<description>Thanks Micheal!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Micheal!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Mapus</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8189</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Mapus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8189</guid>
		<description>This will be my last post on this topic.  Here is an interesting section from the BOC Tappert Edition on the Righteouness of Faith in the Solid Declaration.

&quot;42] Many disputations also are usefully and well explained by means of this true distinction, of which the Apology treats in reference to the passage James 2:20. For when we speak of faith, how it justifies, the doctrine of St. Paul is that faith alone, without works, justifies, Rom. 3:28, inasmuch as it applies and appropriates to us the merit of Christ, as has been said. But if the question is, wherein and whereby a Christian can perceive and distinguish, either in himself or in others, a true living faith from a feigned and dead faith, (since many idle, secure Christians imagine for themselves a delusion in place of faith, while they nevertheless have no true faith,) the Apology gives this answer: James calls that dead faith where good works and fruits of the Spirit of every kind do not follow. And to this effect the Latin edition of the Apology says: Iacobus recte negat, nos tali fide iustificari, quae est sine operibus, hoc est, quae mortua est. That is: St. James teaches correctly when he denies that we are justified by such a faith as is without works, which is dead faith. &quot;

Looking at my past posts and reading my BOC, I have decided, I better get cracking, I have alot to learn.

MM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will be my last post on this topic.  Here is an interesting section from the BOC Tappert Edition on the Righteouness of Faith in the Solid Declaration.</p>
<p>&#8220;42] Many disputations also are usefully and well explained by means of this true distinction, of which the Apology treats in reference to the passage James 2:20. For when we speak of faith, how it justifies, the doctrine of St. Paul is that faith alone, without works, justifies, Rom. 3:28, inasmuch as it applies and appropriates to us the merit of Christ, as has been said. But if the question is, wherein and whereby a Christian can perceive and distinguish, either in himself or in others, a true living faith from a feigned and dead faith, (since many idle, secure Christians imagine for themselves a delusion in place of faith, while they nevertheless have no true faith,) the Apology gives this answer: James calls that dead faith where good works and fruits of the Spirit of every kind do not follow. And to this effect the Latin edition of the Apology says: Iacobus recte negat, nos tali fide iustificari, quae est sine operibus, hoc est, quae mortua est. That is: St. James teaches correctly when he denies that we are justified by such a faith as is without works, which is dead faith. &#8221;</p>
<p>Looking at my past posts and reading my BOC, I have decided, I better get cracking, I have alot to learn.</p>
<p>MM</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Mapus</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8172</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Mapus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8172</guid>
		<description>Lindsey,

You can find Luther&#039;s sermons at christianbooks.com at a realy great price.  You can google search for Walther&#039;s sermons, there&#039;s a few websites that publish them.

Greg,

You bring up a good point about growth in santification.  I was reading the BOC sections on good works and L&amp;G.  The reformers also mention growth in santification.  While at the same time mentioning the Holy Spirit produces that growth by convicting us of our failure to keep God&#039;s Law and turning us back to the righteousness of Christ.  God also is the only one who can actualy see that growth, because He&#039;s the only one who can see the true motivation of the heart.  If we went by externals only, Mormon&#039;s, Budhists, JW&#039;s and even some athiests could seem righteous.  I think it&#039;s good that we Lutherans focus on Justification like we do, but at the same time, I think it&#039;s dangerous to downplay santification.  Our forefathers didn&#039;t.

MM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lindsey,</p>
<p>You can find Luther&#8217;s sermons at christianbooks.com at a realy great price.  You can google search for Walther&#8217;s sermons, there&#8217;s a few websites that publish them.</p>
<p>Greg,</p>
<p>You bring up a good point about growth in santification.  I was reading the BOC sections on good works and L&amp;G.  The reformers also mention growth in santification.  While at the same time mentioning the Holy Spirit produces that growth by convicting us of our failure to keep God&#8217;s Law and turning us back to the righteousness of Christ.  God also is the only one who can actualy see that growth, because He&#8217;s the only one who can see the true motivation of the heart.  If we went by externals only, Mormon&#8217;s, Budhists, JW&#8217;s and even some athiests could seem righteous.  I think it&#8217;s good that we Lutherans focus on Justification like we do, but at the same time, I think it&#8217;s dangerous to downplay santification.  Our forefathers didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>MM</p>
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		<title>By: Greg DeVore</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8170</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg DeVore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 07:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8170</guid>
		<description>Thank you for this post. You cannot be weak on sanctification without at the same time being weak on justification. Those whom God declares righteous He makes righteous. There is no such thing as God leaving one who He as justified under the dominion of sin. In Christ we are freed from sin to serve our Lord Jesus. An interesting topic you might want to blog on the future is the idea that there is no growth in sanctification. No progress in the area of holiness. I do not see this idea supported at all by Pieper or any of his orthodox predecessors but have read confused contemporary Lutheran descriptions of sanctification which seem to rule out any idea of growth in holiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this post. You cannot be weak on sanctification without at the same time being weak on justification. Those whom God declares righteous He makes righteous. There is no such thing as God leaving one who He as justified under the dominion of sin. In Christ we are freed from sin to serve our Lord Jesus. An interesting topic you might want to blog on the future is the idea that there is no growth in sanctification. No progress in the area of holiness. I do not see this idea supported at all by Pieper or any of his orthodox predecessors but have read confused contemporary Lutheran descriptions of sanctification which seem to rule out any idea of growth in holiness.</p>
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		<title>By: Lindsey</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8157</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8157</guid>
		<description>Could you give me some sources on where I can find some of those &quot;Old Lutheran&quot; sermons? I&#039;d like to use some of those for my own self-examination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could you give me some sources on where I can find some of those &#8220;Old Lutheran&#8221; sermons? I&#8217;d like to use some of those for my own self-examination.</p>
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		<title>By: RK</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8144</link>
		<dc:creator>RK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 23:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8144</guid>
		<description>Pastor McCain&#039;s concerns are quite legitimate.  Also, I believe that personal resistance to Sanctification and obstinacy are widely underestimated and we need those &#039;old time&#039; sermons when the pastor names the sins and then asks, &quot;How about you?&quot;.  Those always cut me to the bone and encourage self-examination.  Wonderful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pastor McCain&#8217;s concerns are quite legitimate.  Also, I believe that personal resistance to Sanctification and obstinacy are widely underestimated and we need those &#8216;old time&#8217; sermons when the pastor names the sins and then asks, &#8220;How about you?&#8221;.  Those always cut me to the bone and encourage self-examination.  Wonderful!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Mapus</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8115</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Mapus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8115</guid>
		<description>Pastor Wilken,

Maybe I should have explained myself better.  From God&#039;s perspective, there is no &quot;tension&quot; between Law and Gospel, but we as 100% saints and 100% sinners create that &quot;tension&quot;. Let me explain what I mean by tension.  That tension is the suduction of exremes that lies between being a legalist or an antinomian.  As I thinking about this more and more, I agree with you that the tension doesn&#039;t lie with the Gospel.  It lies with on how we use the Law.  As I read the &quot;Old Lutherans&quot;, in their sermons they would simply preach the text and the Holy Spirit would apply the application of the Law on wether it&#039;s a 2nd or 3rd use.  It seems like many today are trying to &quot;shoe horn&quot; the 2nd use of the Law into every passage that gives a command.  I could be way off base, so please correct me if I&#039;m wrong.  But I can&#039;t help but noticing a difference between the &quot;Old Lutherans&quot; and us newbies, on how they use the Law.  Hey, maybe it&#039;s time to have a week long series on Law and Gospel, get a mix bag of theologians like Saleska, Rosenbladt to Baker?  Or maybe a pastors roundtable? 

Blessings
MM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pastor Wilken,</p>
<p>Maybe I should have explained myself better.  From God&#8217;s perspective, there is no &#8220;tension&#8221; between Law and Gospel, but we as 100% saints and 100% sinners create that &#8220;tension&#8221;. Let me explain what I mean by tension.  That tension is the suduction of exremes that lies between being a legalist or an antinomian.  As I thinking about this more and more, I agree with you that the tension doesn&#8217;t lie with the Gospel.  It lies with on how we use the Law.  As I read the &#8220;Old Lutherans&#8221;, in their sermons they would simply preach the text and the Holy Spirit would apply the application of the Law on wether it&#8217;s a 2nd or 3rd use.  It seems like many today are trying to &#8220;shoe horn&#8221; the 2nd use of the Law into every passage that gives a command.  I could be way off base, so please correct me if I&#8217;m wrong.  But I can&#8217;t help but noticing a difference between the &#8220;Old Lutherans&#8221; and us newbies, on how they use the Law.  Hey, maybe it&#8217;s time to have a week long series on Law and Gospel, get a mix bag of theologians like Saleska, Rosenbladt to Baker?  Or maybe a pastors roundtable? </p>
<p>Blessings<br />
MM</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Wilken</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8112</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Wilken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 04:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8112</guid>
		<description>@ Michael: I was unaware of a &quot;tension&quot; between Law and Gospel, or between Justification and Sanctification. Permit me a response: There is no balancing between Law and Gospel. To do so is to confuse the two. The Gospel isn&#039;t in tension with the Law. The Gospel is the answer to the Law. The Gospel answers the perfect requirements of the Law completely and silences its accusations completely. If it doesn&#039;t, we&#039;re doomed. It isn&#039;t as though legalism belongs to the Law, and antinomianism belongs to the Gospel. Antinomianism isn&#039;t an over-emphasis on the Gospel. Antinomianism is a FALSE Gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Michael: I was unaware of a &#8220;tension&#8221; between Law and Gospel, or between Justification and Sanctification. Permit me a response: There is no balancing between Law and Gospel. To do so is to confuse the two. The Gospel isn&#8217;t in tension with the Law. The Gospel is the answer to the Law. The Gospel answers the perfect requirements of the Law completely and silences its accusations completely. If it doesn&#8217;t, we&#8217;re doomed. It isn&#8217;t as though legalism belongs to the Law, and antinomianism belongs to the Gospel. Antinomianism isn&#8217;t an over-emphasis on the Gospel. Antinomianism is a FALSE Gospel.</p>
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		<title>By: Karyn</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8110</link>
		<dc:creator>Karyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 03:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8110</guid>
		<description>First, thank you Mr. Mapus for your comments. I’ll try to keep this reply as brief as I can since I know we don’t want to keep this going much longer. I just thought I should add a couple of things. Mr. Mapus is correct in summarizing one of my points as “the pendulum [has swung] too far in the other direction.” The majority of present-day America is on the antinomian side of the scale as opposed to the legalism side. There is no argument with Pastor Wilken’s point that the dangers of any extreme or false doctrines are a threat to truth but that is not the issue. Anyone who has read Walther’s writings realizes that in making the proper distinction between Law and Gospel, it is necessary to use discernment and consider who your audience is. If you are communicating one on one, you may have a better perspective on what the individual needs, but when you are communicating (witnessing, counseling, teaching, preaching) to a mass audience of average Americans, it is important to understand that the majority are more likely to be on the antinomian side of the scale than the legalism side right now.
   
If you ask the average American, he will have knowledge of the basic Gospel message and he can probably tell you all about “forgiveness” because it is very trendy to be “forgiving” in our culture right now. But ask the average American what he knows about the Ten Commandments and I think you might be surprised at the ignorance you would find. I wonder what percentile would even be able to name 5 out of the 10? Concepts about which I wrote earlier, like the voluntary restitution involved in repentance, are completely alien to most people. The extent of the evidence is probably not conducive to the forum of a blog site but at present, America does lack an understanding of God’s Law far beyond any deficit in its awareness of the Gospel message. I also agree with Mr. Mapus’ insight that at least concerning the sermons I’ve heard, it is rare that I hear the full weight of the law preached and explained. What I hear most often is a barely perceptible, watered down version of the law and a lengthy discourse on all the freedoms of the Gospel. I won’t try to explain again what message this sends to most people; all I can suggest is that there is a problem and there are perceptibly harmful ramifications.

Also, I am assuming there is some reasoning that is escaping me behind Pastor Wilken’s statement that “ . . . the Church Growth movement is fundamentally pietistic and legalistic.” I don’t see any reason to agree with that statement because on the contrary, the Church Growth movement is all about tolerance in general and accommodating alternative worship styles in order to increase the size of a congregation. That is shameless antinomianism; exactly the opposite of legalism. It is throwing out certain laws and rules in favor of tolerance and accommodation and I would consider it another example of the prevalence of antinomianism in our age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, thank you Mr. Mapus for your comments. I’ll try to keep this reply as brief as I can since I know we don’t want to keep this going much longer. I just thought I should add a couple of things. Mr. Mapus is correct in summarizing one of my points as “the pendulum [has swung] too far in the other direction.” The majority of present-day America is on the antinomian side of the scale as opposed to the legalism side. There is no argument with Pastor Wilken’s point that the dangers of any extreme or false doctrines are a threat to truth but that is not the issue. Anyone who has read Walther’s writings realizes that in making the proper distinction between Law and Gospel, it is necessary to use discernment and consider who your audience is. If you are communicating one on one, you may have a better perspective on what the individual needs, but when you are communicating (witnessing, counseling, teaching, preaching) to a mass audience of average Americans, it is important to understand that the majority are more likely to be on the antinomian side of the scale than the legalism side right now.</p>
<p>If you ask the average American, he will have knowledge of the basic Gospel message and he can probably tell you all about “forgiveness” because it is very trendy to be “forgiving” in our culture right now. But ask the average American what he knows about the Ten Commandments and I think you might be surprised at the ignorance you would find. I wonder what percentile would even be able to name 5 out of the 10? Concepts about which I wrote earlier, like the voluntary restitution involved in repentance, are completely alien to most people. The extent of the evidence is probably not conducive to the forum of a blog site but at present, America does lack an understanding of God’s Law far beyond any deficit in its awareness of the Gospel message. I also agree with Mr. Mapus’ insight that at least concerning the sermons I’ve heard, it is rare that I hear the full weight of the law preached and explained. What I hear most often is a barely perceptible, watered down version of the law and a lengthy discourse on all the freedoms of the Gospel. I won’t try to explain again what message this sends to most people; all I can suggest is that there is a problem and there are perceptibly harmful ramifications.</p>
<p>Also, I am assuming there is some reasoning that is escaping me behind Pastor Wilken’s statement that “ . . . the Church Growth movement is fundamentally pietistic and legalistic.” I don’t see any reason to agree with that statement because on the contrary, the Church Growth movement is all about tolerance in general and accommodating alternative worship styles in order to increase the size of a congregation. That is shameless antinomianism; exactly the opposite of legalism. It is throwing out certain laws and rules in favor of tolerance and accommodation and I would consider it another example of the prevalence of antinomianism in our age.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Mapus</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/08/23/weak-on-sanctification-is-not-something-to-be-proud-about/comment-page-1/#comment-8102</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Mapus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=3005#comment-8102</guid>
		<description>Good point Pastor Wilken, the right answer is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. One of the hard things to grasp and deal with in our theology is the tension that lies between Law and Gospel.  With that tension lies the seduction of extremes that even we Lutherans get seduced by.  But I do think, in our zeal against modern evangelicals, the pedulum is beginning to swing to far in the other direction. I do think Karyn nailed this with a bullseye.  As she pointed out, I think we all been infected with the PC culture and the Gospel has been reduced to &quot;Jesus loves you sermons&quot;. When I read sermons from Luther, Walther and Maier, I cannot help but wonder how they would be received in today&#039;s LCMS congregations.  You got the full weight of the Law with them: calling parishioners sinners, preaching on proper christian conduct and then came the sweetness of the Gospel. They seemed to handle the tension between Justification, Sanctification and Law &amp; Gospel much better that we do.

MM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point Pastor Wilken, the right answer is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. One of the hard things to grasp and deal with in our theology is the tension that lies between Law and Gospel.  With that tension lies the seduction of extremes that even we Lutherans get seduced by.  But I do think, in our zeal against modern evangelicals, the pedulum is beginning to swing to far in the other direction. I do think Karyn nailed this with a bullseye.  As she pointed out, I think we all been infected with the PC culture and the Gospel has been reduced to &#8220;Jesus loves you sermons&#8221;. When I read sermons from Luther, Walther and Maier, I cannot help but wonder how they would be received in today&#8217;s LCMS congregations.  You got the full weight of the Law with them: calling parishioners sinners, preaching on proper christian conduct and then came the sweetness of the Gospel. They seemed to handle the tension between Justification, Sanctification and Law &amp; Gospel much better that we do.</p>
<p>MM</p>
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