Comments on: Warning Signs that a Lutheran Pastor or Layperson is Headed Toward Rome

By: Jen

Jen — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 11:55:25 +0000

Hey, I like Luther’s Mass and I think using pertinent quotes from St. Augustine is beneficial. I also like chasubles, chant and arcane rubrics. Am I in danger? No, I am not. As much as I’d like there to be a visible church that is “one”, I can’t get over their gospel and all the pope stuff. Bleh. I’m a very convinced Lutheran.

By: mh

mh — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:03:17 +0000

I agree that pastors and leaders especially need to be honest and step out of leadership positions until they find theological clarity and certainty, or “do what they must do.” However, a layman struggling with this temptation, who is not in a teaching position and who does not communicate his doubts/concerns/thoughts with anyone but his pastor and close family, I would NOT advise to do anything “quickly,” but encourage them to continue in prayer, receiving the Word and Sacrament, and study.

McCain reply: Good points, thanks.

By: Mark Henderson

Mark Henderson — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 23:03:23 +0000

In my synod – the Lutheran Church of Australia – we have had a handful of conversions to Rome by younger pastors over the last nine years, and a handful of others who evidently sympathise but haven’t taken the decision to convert as yet. I’m sure they’d all put a different slant on their reasons, but a common thread seems to be not so much the ‘liturgy thing’ but ‘the authority thing’, and they have been propelled to this crisis over authority by the debate on the ordination of women, which is somewhat analagous in our synod to the debate over homosexuality in the ELCA (let me add – it has been discussed for 25 years now and taken to several general synods but has not been approved). In light of this debate, it seems that LCA Rome-ophiles find compelling Cardinal Newman’s argument that one must either submit to an infallible ecclesiastical authority, viz. the Pope, or permit the church to suffer to the death from one of two incurable diseases: latitudinarianism: unity of form over unity of doctrine (Anglicanism!), or sectarianism: unity of doctrine over unity of form (Lutheranism!).

Mark, thanks for your comment. Yes, that is also my opinion. A desire for a “teaching authority” telling them what to believe and what to do is very attractive, particularly when Lutheranism in various places appears to be in a state of collapse.

By: rk

rk — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:23:31 +0000

“if you are not going to stay and remain among us, taking your post on Zion’s wall, then what you must do, do quickly.”

Absolutely!

Many of these types, who are pastors or church workers, like to continue receiving their pay and benefits while deceiving/damaging the congregation.

By: Kaleb Axon

Kaleb Axon — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:41:11 +0000

I agree with you about prayer to saints, or downplaying our differences with Rome. But I would also say that a Lutheran who is deathly allergic to the writings of anyone the Catholics call a saint, or to anything connected with a Pope, is likely headed toward American Evangelicalism.

Kaleb: I suppose it depends on which Catholic “saint” is quoted. Quoting, for instance, “The Little Flower,” spouting fluffy speculative nonsense, is not a good example of quoting a person whom the Catholic Church has declared to be a saint. Some have over-reacted to threats of American Evangelicalism by embracing uniquely Roman practices and thoughts, thinking this is a good anti-dote. Lutheranism is an anti-dote, not Popery.

By: IggyAntiochus

IggyAntiochus — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:12:50 +0000

I’ve read the testimonies of a few who have turned to Rome. I have seen Rome’s converts from the ELCA on “Journey Home.”

I read and listen to them carefully.

I still cannot comprehend the “why.”

By: Mark

Mark — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:07:35 +0000

Do you really mean to say that we, who are seeking to enter into full communion with the church Jesus Christ founded, are Judas Iscariots?

McCain: That’s odd, I did not say that, but of course Jesus Christ did not “found” the claim by the Bishop of Rome to be the Vicar of Christ and universal Pontiff. But apparently you did mean to say that.

By: jack Kilcrease

jack Kilcrease — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:44:16 +0000

I know in my own district (Michigan) that movement towards Eastern orthodoxy has been something of a problem. I think you’ve written some posts about that. I wasn’t aware that flirtations with Rome were becoming a problem in our synod. I thought that that was merely an ELCA phenomenon. In light of my experiences in my doctoral program at a Jesuit university, I’m not entirely certain why Rome would be attractive to an LCMS Lutheran (I certainly never found it attractive). Is it the liturgy thing or what? What’s your diagnosis?

By: Good short post « Mississauga Musings

Good short post « Mississauga Musings — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:14:03 +0000

[...] Good short post By pettor http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/11/21/warning-signs-that-a-lutheran-pastor-or-layperson-is-headed-towa… [...]