Comments on: The Less Decoration in Our Churches the Better: This is Most Certainly NOT True http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/ Devoted to authentic Lutheranism Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:42:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: David Ernst http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9758 David Ernst Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:01:00 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9758 It's been 40 years, but I recall evidence that the rural South Dakota church where my late father served as pastor in the 1960s had once been more richly decorated. At that time the chancel was very "minimalist" with a cross (not a crucifix) above a plain altar. There was your basic pulpit and lectern and, of course, the moveable baptismal font off to one side. However, high on a shelf in a basement closet there was a collection of old, German-style crucifixes. Also, in one corner of the choir loft there was a statue of an angel that apparently was overlooked when the style of the church was brought "up to date." It was a great shock when Dad took a call to a Nebraska parish that had been less strongly influenced by pietism. The highly ornate altar featured a statue of Christ (!) that I remember as nearly life-size. But this may be a trick of memory, because the statue was elevated so high off the floor. <em>McCain response; David, this is precisely what happened in a good many small rural churches. For some reason, they were bitten by the "sterile" bug and tore out their beautiful ornate altars, statues of Christ and crucifixes and put in their place plain things. Sad.</em> It’s been 40 years, but I recall evidence that the rural South Dakota church where my late father served as pastor in the 1960s had once been more richly decorated. At that time the chancel was very “minimalist” with a cross (not a crucifix) above a plain altar. There was your basic pulpit and lectern and, of course, the moveable baptismal font off to one side. However, high on a shelf in a basement closet there was a collection of old, German-style crucifixes. Also, in one corner of the choir loft there was a statue of an angel that apparently was overlooked when the style of the church was brought “up to date.” It was a great shock when Dad took a call to a Nebraska parish that had been less strongly influenced by pietism. The highly ornate altar featured a statue of Christ (!) that I remember as nearly life-size. But this may be a trick of memory, because the statue was elevated so high off the floor.

McCain response; David, this is precisely what happened in a good many small rural churches. For some reason, they were bitten by the “sterile” bug and tore out their beautiful ornate altars, statues of Christ and crucifixes and put in their place plain things. Sad.

]]> By: Joanne http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9736 Joanne Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:17:26 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9736 The first Lutheran church interiors were decorated in the style of the German Renaissance and Cranach was intimately involved in the abundant art work along with the Wittenberg carver. St. Wolfgang's in Schneeberg was the first Lutheran church being completed during Luther's lifetime. However, it was a bone of contention along with Schneeberg's silver mines between the Albertines and Ernestines. It took a few years for the Lutheran Ernestines to solidly win the church and install the Cranach altar piece in the 1530s. In the 1540s the Ernestines built, decorated, and dedicated their palace chapel at Hartenfels Castle in Torgau. Cranach had painted much on the interior of the castle, huge hunting scenes, skies full of clouds. So it was natural that he also painted almost every inch of the chapel and especially the reredos the stood behind the carved stone altar table held up by two angels. German Renaissance style called for elaborate and busy use of space with figural art. All that is left today is the stone altar table and the pulpit. The 3rd Lutheran buildng I'd bring into this discussion is the Beatae Mariae Viginis in Wolfenbuettel. This church was built in 1608 and is often considered the 1st purpose built Lutheran hauptkirche. The dukes of Hesse-Wolfenbeuttel made this church a monument to their family, burying 23 members in the crypt below. History has been kind to preserve most of the art that the dukes built into their church. The 4th buildings I'd mention are the 2 peace churches still to be found in Silesia that were built by Lutherans at the end of the 30 years war in about 1650. The Lutherans lost Silesia to the Hapsburgs but by negotiaion in the treaty were allowed to build 3 churches in Silesia although with stricht limitation. Evenso, they built beautifully decorated churches. You can lovely pictures of all these churches by Google Image searches. These Lutherans decorated their churches in the styles of the day making them as lovely as posible. The first Lutheran church interiors were decorated in the style of the German Renaissance and Cranach was intimately involved in the abundant art work along with the Wittenberg carver. St. Wolfgang’s in Schneeberg was the first Lutheran church being completed during Luther’s lifetime. However, it was a bone of contention along with Schneeberg’s silver mines between the Albertines and Ernestines. It took a few years for the Lutheran Ernestines to solidly win the church and install the Cranach altar piece in the 1530s. In the 1540s the Ernestines built, decorated, and dedicated their palace chapel at Hartenfels Castle in Torgau. Cranach had painted much on the interior of the castle, huge hunting scenes, skies full of clouds. So it was natural that he also painted almost every inch of the chapel and especially the reredos the stood behind the carved stone altar table held up by two angels. German Renaissance style called for elaborate and busy use of space with figural art. All that is left today is the stone altar table and the pulpit. The 3rd Lutheran buildng I’d bring into this discussion is the Beatae Mariae Viginis in Wolfenbuettel. This church was built in 1608 and is often considered the 1st purpose built Lutheran hauptkirche. The dukes of Hesse-Wolfenbeuttel made this church a monument to their family, burying 23 members in the crypt below. History has been kind to preserve most of the art that the dukes built into their church. The 4th buildings I’d mention are the 2 peace churches still to be found in Silesia that were built by Lutherans at the end of the 30 years war in about 1650. The Lutherans lost Silesia to the Hapsburgs but by negotiaion in the treaty were allowed to build 3 churches in Silesia although with stricht limitation. Evenso, they built beautifully decorated churches. You can lovely pictures of all these churches by Google Image searches. These Lutherans decorated their churches in the styles of the day making them as lovely as posible.

]]> By: PHW http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9713 PHW Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:32:20 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9713 Among Lutherans, I wonder how much of this is Karlstadt's legacy. Much damage to the Reformation is he. Among Lutherans, I wonder how much of this is Karlstadt’s legacy. Much damage to the Reformation is he.

]]> By: Mark http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9712 Mark Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:14:27 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9712 If we would remember that churches are sacred spaces, where Christ is truly and sacramentally present, perhaps we wouldn't build sanctuaries that look like potato barns. If we would remember that churches are sacred spaces, where Christ is truly and sacramentally present, perhaps we wouldn’t build sanctuaries that look like potato barns.

]]> By: L P Cruz http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9710 L P Cruz Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:30:58 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9710 jmark, <i>Forty years ago, my Catholic aunt dared to enter a Lutheran church. At the time, local priests told their parishioners that entering a non-Catholic church was a serious sin. What demonic evils greeted her when she entered that forbidden place?</i> I was taught the same thing! I was told the moment I step foot at a Protestant church, I would go straight to hell; they told me the earth would actually open and swallow me down. I was just a young boy then. I remember being rebellious and I would purposely step near the door way of a local Protestant church, I would quickly put my right foot in and quickly take it back, just to see if it were true. As to high church, I have a different reasoning. If I wanted a high church experience, I might as well go back and be an RC again. Those symbols and what have you are present in the RC church, but as an ex-RC, they can really distract you from Scripture. LPC jmark,

Forty years ago, my Catholic aunt dared to enter a Lutheran church. At the time, local priests told their parishioners that entering a non-Catholic church was a serious sin. What demonic evils greeted her when she entered that forbidden place?

I was taught the same thing! I was told the moment I step foot at a Protestant church, I would go straight to hell; they told me the earth would actually open and swallow me down. I was just a young boy then. I remember being rebellious and I would purposely step near the door way of a local Protestant church, I would quickly put my right foot in and quickly take it back, just to see if it were true.

As to high church, I have a different reasoning. If I wanted a high church experience, I might as well go back and be an RC again.

Those symbols and what have you are present in the RC church, but as an ex-RC, they can really distract you from Scripture.

LPC

]]> By: Confessional Lutheran Ecclesiastical Art Resources » Blog Archive » Lutheran church decoration http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9709 Confessional Lutheran Ecclesiastical Art Resources » Blog Archive » Lutheran church decoration Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:39:15 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9709 [...] Pr. McCain blogs about how Lutheran churches are not iconoclastic in The Less Decoration in Our Churches, the Better: This is Most Certainly NOT True. [...] [...] Pr. McCain blogs about how Lutheran churches are not iconoclastic in The Less Decoration in Our Churches, the Better: This is Most Certainly NOT True. [...]

]]> By: Tapani Simojoki http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9707 Tapani Simojoki Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:48:48 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9707 <a href="#comment-9703" rel="nofollow">@Tapani Simojoki </a> Thank you! @Tapani Simojoki
Thank you!

]]> By: jmark http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9706 jmark Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:19:41 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9706 Forty years ago, my Catholic aunt dared to enter a Lutheran church. At the time, local priests told their parishioners that entering a non-Catholic church was a serious sin. What demonic evils greeted her when she entered that forbidden place? I remember her reporting back to my mother the following: "It was just like one of our churches!" When I first became a Lutheran, I mistakenly thought that one of the differences between a "high" Lutheran church and a "low" Lutheran church was the prominent presence of a crucifix. I preferred the "high" Lutheran churches. The "low" ones looked bare--sometimes so bare as to resemble a soulless congregational church building: sterile and chilly--B-r-r-r-r! Forty years ago, my Catholic aunt dared to enter a Lutheran church. At the time, local priests told their parishioners that entering a non-Catholic church was a serious sin. What demonic evils greeted her when she entered that forbidden place? I remember her reporting back to my mother the following: “It was just like one of our churches!”
When I first became a Lutheran, I mistakenly thought that one of the differences between a “high” Lutheran church and a “low” Lutheran church was the prominent presence of a crucifix. I preferred the “high” Lutheran churches. The “low” ones looked bare–sometimes so bare as to resemble a soulless congregational church building: sterile and chilly–B-r-r-r-r!

]]> By: moallen http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9705 moallen Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:24:35 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9705 I have visited Our Savior Lutheran in Houston. Pastor Laurence White gave me a DVD on the history of this type of Church architecture and how this particular Church came to be built. It is truly a beautiful Church and the DVD was great. This Church made me start to rethink some of my opinions on Church/religious art - my son is artistic and I wonder what kind of message it sends when art is not welcome in Church? Because sinful people abuse art and turn it in to idols (see the bronze serpent in Scripture) does not mean all art should be banned. God Himself directed the making of the bronze serpent, sinful people turned it into an idol. Where does the problem lie? - in the object itself or in man's heart? One could make the same argument about anything for our sinful hearts are idol factories, no art needed. I have visited Our Savior Lutheran in Houston. Pastor Laurence White gave me a DVD on the history of this type of Church architecture and how this particular Church came to be built. It is truly a beautiful Church and the DVD was great. This Church made me start to rethink some of my opinions on Church/religious art – my son is artistic and I wonder what kind of message it sends when art is not welcome in Church? Because sinful people abuse art and turn it in to idols (see the bronze serpent in Scripture) does not mean all art should be banned. God Himself directed the making of the bronze serpent, sinful people turned it into an idol. Where does the problem lie? – in the object itself or in man’s heart? One could make the same argument about anything for our sinful hearts are idol factories, no art needed.

]]> By: Christine http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/14/the-less-decorations-in-our-churches-the-better-this-is-most-certainly-not-true/comment-page-1/#comment-9704 Christine Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:13:10 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=4368#comment-9704 Not sure if this will open as a live link, if not, a search on Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church, Cleveland will lead to archives showing the beauty of this gem. Zion is an historic LCMS church in Cleveland and the ecclesiastical appointments are magnificent. http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/germans&CISOPTR=19&CISOBOX=1&REC=12 The Lutheran Reformation was conservative and not iconoclastic. In keeping with the pratice of the Church catholic Lutherans have always employed the arts in their worship and the influence of American Protestantism with its minimalism is foreign to authentic Lutheran sensibility. Christine Not sure if this will open as a live link, if not, a search on Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church, Cleveland will lead to archives showing the beauty of this gem. Zion is an historic LCMS church in Cleveland and the ecclesiastical appointments are magnificent.

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/germans&CISOPTR=19&CISOBOX=1&REC=12

The Lutheran Reformation was conservative and not iconoclastic. In keeping with the pratice of the Church catholic Lutherans have always employed the arts in their worship and the influence of American Protestantism with its minimalism is foreign to authentic Lutheran sensibility.

Christine

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