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	<title>Comments on: Are Lutherans Antinomian? Some Are. Genuine Lutheranism is Not!</title>
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	<description>Devoted to authentic Lutheranism</description>
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		<title>By: Lindsey</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10523</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10523</guid>
		<description>Mike, I totally agree with you. I am sick and tired of weak &quot;Lutheran&quot; preaching and Bible studies that follow this outline. Where is the teaching of discipleship?

I admit, I do get alot of my spiritual growth from non-Lutheran sources precisely because of this. I try to follow the &quot;eat the fish, spit out the bones&quot; principle.

However, when i find good Lutheran sources (like Martin Luther&#039;s sermons, Paul McCain&#039;s blog, Lutheran hymns, etc) that DO exhort believers to live a Christian life, I rejoice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, I totally agree with you. I am sick and tired of weak &#8220;Lutheran&#8221; preaching and Bible studies that follow this outline. Where is the teaching of discipleship?</p>
<p>I admit, I do get alot of my spiritual growth from non-Lutheran sources precisely because of this. I try to follow the &#8220;eat the fish, spit out the bones&#8221; principle.</p>
<p>However, when i find good Lutheran sources (like Martin Luther&#8217;s sermons, Paul McCain&#8217;s blog, Lutheran hymns, etc) that DO exhort believers to live a Christian life, I rejoice.</p>
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		<title>By: ptmccain</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10427</link>
		<dc:creator>ptmccain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10427</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comment. I&#039;ve been keeping an eye on the CS Seminary interest in &quot;two kinds of righteousness.&quot; While there are interesting things to be learned from all this discussion, it can not possibly be viewed as a more Lutheran or more essential distinction than the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

&quot;Two kinds of righteousness&quot; is not what the Lutheran Confessions say is the key to understanding Scripture, a &quot;particularly brilliant light.&quot; L/G is, by far, the most fundamental distinction in Holy Scripture and hence in Luther&#039;s theology and the Lutheran Confessions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment. I&#8217;ve been keeping an eye on the CS Seminary interest in &#8220;two kinds of righteousness.&#8221; While there are interesting things to be learned from all this discussion, it can not possibly be viewed as a more Lutheran or more essential distinction than the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.</p>
<p>&#8220;Two kinds of righteousness&#8221; is not what the Lutheran Confessions say is the key to understanding Scripture, a &#8220;particularly brilliant light.&#8221; L/G is, by far, the most fundamental distinction in Holy Scripture and hence in Luther&#8217;s theology and the Lutheran Confessions.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10425</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 00:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10425</guid>
		<description>Part of our problem as Lutherans has been forcing all our theological reflection through the Law/Gospel paradigm. It&#039;s very helpful for preaching and pastoral care, but not in all areas. More recently, there has been a re-emphasis on the Lutheran conception of &quot;Two kinds of righteousness,&quot; which might be even more fundamental to our theology than L/G. See the book recently authored by Charles Arand &amp; Robert Kolb, two professors of the St. Louis seminary, entitled &quot;The Genius of Luther&#039;s Theology&quot; (apologies, Rev. McCain; it&#039;s published by Baker). For a shorter treatment, see the articles in the April 2007 Concordia Journal, available here: http://www.csl.edu/Img/Publications/cjapril07.pdf. Also, all the work of LCMS Lutheran Gilbert Maelaender (sp?) is very helpful.

As far as good preaching goes, it&#039;s out there. You might try listening to the Chapel Sermons podcast from Concordia Seminary on iTunesU.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of our problem as Lutherans has been forcing all our theological reflection through the Law/Gospel paradigm. It&#8217;s very helpful for preaching and pastoral care, but not in all areas. More recently, there has been a re-emphasis on the Lutheran conception of &#8220;Two kinds of righteousness,&#8221; which might be even more fundamental to our theology than L/G. See the book recently authored by Charles Arand &amp; Robert Kolb, two professors of the St. Louis seminary, entitled &#8220;The Genius of Luther&#8217;s Theology&#8221; (apologies, Rev. McCain; it&#8217;s published by Baker). For a shorter treatment, see the articles in the April 2007 Concordia Journal, available here: <a href="http://www.csl.edu/Img/Publications/cjapril07.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.csl.edu/Img/Publications/cjapril07.pdf</a>. Also, all the work of LCMS Lutheran Gilbert Maelaender (sp?) is very helpful.</p>
<p>As far as good preaching goes, it&#8217;s out there. You might try listening to the Chapel Sermons podcast from Concordia Seminary on iTunesU.</p>
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		<title>By: ptmccain</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10421</link>
		<dc:creator>ptmccain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10421</guid>
		<description>David, Dr. Scaer&#039;s remarks really have nothing to do with this post. Nobody is defining &quot;third use of the law&quot; as &quot;progress toward moral perfection.&quot;

At issue is the unfortunate penchant of some who claim to be &quot;confessional Lutherans&quot; for avoiding any mention of the Christian life in their sermons. This stands in utter contradiction of Scripture, the Lutheran Confessions and all the orthodox Lutheran theologians, preachers and teachers from the Reformation through the age of Orthodoxy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, Dr. Scaer&#8217;s remarks really have nothing to do with this post. Nobody is defining &#8220;third use of the law&#8221; as &#8220;progress toward moral perfection.&#8221;</p>
<p>At issue is the unfortunate penchant of some who claim to be &#8220;confessional Lutherans&#8221; for avoiding any mention of the Christian life in their sermons. This stands in utter contradiction of Scripture, the Lutheran Confessions and all the orthodox Lutheran theologians, preachers and teachers from the Reformation through the age of Orthodoxy.</p>
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		<title>By: viatorum</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10418</link>
		<dc:creator>viatorum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10418</guid>
		<description>Perhaps this takes the thread too far off track, but I have one minor exception to raise.  You suggest that the ELCA stance on human sexuality is antinomian.  As one who attends an ELCA church this doesn&#039;t ring true.  In fact, it is the opposite.  At least in my world, I&#039;m surrounded by a pietism of the left and a pietism of the right.  Much of the &quot;socially progressive&quot; stuff is not a tolerance of decadence and pride parade type looseness, but a moral demand to live according to environmental, feminist, or other contemporary ethics.  To put it another way, you come off sounding like you are trying to stamp out the rowdy tomfoolery of a bunch of naughty boys and girls.  Many within the ELCA are doing the same thing.  The difference is that the things you find &quot;naughty&quot; they would call trifles, or deny that they are sins at all.  On the other hand, were you in the ELCA, you might be fed a bunch of nagging law about your homophobia.   The unfortunate thing is that to the extent the ELCA and the LCMS don&#039;t catch on to the fact that the only thing these increasingly irrelevant, too-often-ethnically based churches have to offer is their championing of the gospel.  By and large, whatever these churches confess, time after time, new folk I introduce find a bunch of law mongering.  I WISH the problem were too many libertines; in the LCMS, just because you cuss and drink doesn&#039;t necessarily mean outsiders see you living out a deep sense of grace.  

I&#039;ve studied theology formally, but instead of debating things in a formal way,  perhaps it might be fun to step back and compare the players here to characters in popular film and television. I&#039;ll go first: the quote &quot;... and make it a butt of jokes and laughter, when we allow ourselves to grow lazy and indifferent when it comes to holiness of living ...&quot; doesn&#039;t start sounding more like the animated villain Burgermeister Meisterburger than a Lutheran thinker.   The specter of a guy shouting &quot;stop laughing, making t-shirts, and having too much fun&quot; is actually a lot scarier than the opposition which, at worst, looks a bit too much like Han Solo, having perhaps one drink and one black market deal too many before going on to save the galaxy.   You think I&#039;m joking?  Ask yourself seriously, who are the true heroes in this broken world and you&#039;ll probably find they rarely sound like sour moralists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps this takes the thread too far off track, but I have one minor exception to raise.  You suggest that the ELCA stance on human sexuality is antinomian.  As one who attends an ELCA church this doesn&#8217;t ring true.  In fact, it is the opposite.  At least in my world, I&#8217;m surrounded by a pietism of the left and a pietism of the right.  Much of the &#8220;socially progressive&#8221; stuff is not a tolerance of decadence and pride parade type looseness, but a moral demand to live according to environmental, feminist, or other contemporary ethics.  To put it another way, you come off sounding like you are trying to stamp out the rowdy tomfoolery of a bunch of naughty boys and girls.  Many within the ELCA are doing the same thing.  The difference is that the things you find &#8220;naughty&#8221; they would call trifles, or deny that they are sins at all.  On the other hand, were you in the ELCA, you might be fed a bunch of nagging law about your homophobia.   The unfortunate thing is that to the extent the ELCA and the LCMS don&#8217;t catch on to the fact that the only thing these increasingly irrelevant, too-often-ethnically based churches have to offer is their championing of the gospel.  By and large, whatever these churches confess, time after time, new folk I introduce find a bunch of law mongering.  I WISH the problem were too many libertines; in the LCMS, just because you cuss and drink doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean outsiders see you living out a deep sense of grace.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve studied theology formally, but instead of debating things in a formal way,  perhaps it might be fun to step back and compare the players here to characters in popular film and television. I&#8217;ll go first: the quote &#8220;&#8230; and make it a butt of jokes and laughter, when we allow ourselves to grow lazy and indifferent when it comes to holiness of living &#8230;&#8221; doesn&#8217;t start sounding more like the animated villain Burgermeister Meisterburger than a Lutheran thinker.   The specter of a guy shouting &#8220;stop laughing, making t-shirts, and having too much fun&#8221; is actually a lot scarier than the opposition which, at worst, looks a bit too much like Han Solo, having perhaps one drink and one black market deal too many before going on to save the galaxy.   You think I&#8217;m joking?  Ask yourself seriously, who are the true heroes in this broken world and you&#8217;ll probably find they rarely sound like sour moralists.</p>
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		<title>By: Rev Allen Yount (CRSM)</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10415</link>
		<dc:creator>Rev Allen Yount (CRSM)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10415</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why didn’t Paul stop at Romans 6:11? Why did he write beyond that and go on to describe the Christian life?&quot;

Another question along the same lines: if the descriptions of the Christian life in Paul&#039;s epistles were not intended as material for preaching, then why did Paul write the following to Titus (a pastor and a preacher)?

&quot;But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.  Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness.  Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,  and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,  to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.  Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.  Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,  and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.  Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,  not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,  training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,  waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,  who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.  *Declare these things;* exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you&quot; (Titus 2:1ff, emphasis added ).

That&#039;s a pretty detailed description of the Christian life, and note that Paul specifically tells Titus to &quot;declare these things,&quot; that is, to preach these things. if it&#039;s unnecessary or even harmful to speak about these things in a sermon, as these pastors seem to allege, then why did Paul tell Titus to preach them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why didn’t Paul stop at Romans 6:11? Why did he write beyond that and go on to describe the Christian life?&#8221;</p>
<p>Another question along the same lines: if the descriptions of the Christian life in Paul&#8217;s epistles were not intended as material for preaching, then why did Paul write the following to Titus (a pastor and a preacher)?</p>
<p>&#8220;But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.  Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness.  Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,  and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,  to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.  Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.  Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,  and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.  Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,  not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,  training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,  waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,  who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.  *Declare these things;* exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you&#8221; (Titus 2:1ff, emphasis added ).</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a pretty detailed description of the Christian life, and note that Paul specifically tells Titus to &#8220;declare these things,&#8221; that is, to preach these things. if it&#8217;s unnecessary or even harmful to speak about these things in a sermon, as these pastors seem to allege, then why did Paul tell Titus to preach them?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt P.</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10414</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10414</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

My answer to your question (Why do people need to be exhorted to do
what should come naturally to any Christian who is now alive in Christ
and dead to sin?) is...

Simul iustus et peccator = at the same time sinner and saint.  We never
stop being sinners therefore we need the law to beat down our flesh,
that is, the Old Adam.  This is Luther&#039;s basic argument against John
Agricola (the original Antinomian) *My opinion: This is why Romans 7 comes after Romans 6.*

The authors of the Formula of Concord put forth a similar argument.  

&quot;Believers also require the teaching of the law regarding their good
works, for otherwise people could imagine that their works and life are
completely pure and perfect. However, the law of God prescribes good
works for believers, so that it may at the same time show and indicate,
as if in a MIRROR, that they are still imperfect and impure in this
life.&quot; Formula of Concord, VI. 21 (Emphasis added by me)

I&#039;ve found reading this text (Formula, VI) to be very helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>My answer to your question (Why do people need to be exhorted to do<br />
what should come naturally to any Christian who is now alive in Christ<br />
and dead to sin?) is&#8230;</p>
<p>Simul iustus et peccator = at the same time sinner and saint.  We never<br />
stop being sinners therefore we need the law to beat down our flesh,<br />
that is, the Old Adam.  This is Luther&#8217;s basic argument against John<br />
Agricola (the original Antinomian) *My opinion: This is why Romans 7 comes after Romans 6.*</p>
<p>The authors of the Formula of Concord put forth a similar argument.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Believers also require the teaching of the law regarding their good<br />
works, for otherwise people could imagine that their works and life are<br />
completely pure and perfect. However, the law of God prescribes good<br />
works for believers, so that it may at the same time show and indicate,<br />
as if in a MIRROR, that they are still imperfect and impure in this<br />
life.&#8221; Formula of Concord, VI. 21 (Emphasis added by me)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve found reading this text (Formula, VI) to be very helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Veenman</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10413</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Veenman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10413</guid>
		<description>Jeff and others,
You may hold to any view of sanctification you wish.  

If you&#039;re a confessional Lutheran, then you ought to subscribe also to the Solid Declaration, Art. VI: &quot;It is true that the law is not laid down for the just (I Tim. 1:9)...but for the ungodly.  But this dare not be understood without qualification, as though the righteous should live without the law....&quot;

&quot;Then he (the Holy Spirit) employs the law to instruct the regenerate out of it and to show and indicate to them in the 10 Commandments what the acceptable will of God is (Rom. 12:2) and in what good works, which God has prepared beforehand, they should walk (Eph.2:10)&quot;

&quot;Believers, furthermore, require the teaching of the law in connection with their good works, because otherwise they can easily imagine that their works and life are perfectly pure and holy.&quot;

&quot;Hence we reject and condemn, as pernicious and contrary to Christian discipline and true godliness, the erroneous doctrine that the law ...is not to be urged upon Christians and true believers but only upon unbelievers, non-Christians, and the unrepentant.&quot;

It seems that the regenerated Christian is certainly not UNDER the law, but rather IN the law, i.e. she has the law written on her heart and freely obeys because she, having been led by the law to Christ, enjoys vicariously His perfect righteousness and, having the Holy Spirit, is guided by the Law and is able to offer up perfect sacrifices and good works which are acceptable to God BECAUSE SHE HAS GOD&#039;S GRACE AND BELIEVES.

&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-10405&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Jeff &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff and others,<br />
You may hold to any view of sanctification you wish.  </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re a confessional Lutheran, then you ought to subscribe also to the Solid Declaration, Art. VI: &#8220;It is true that the law is not laid down for the just (I Tim. 1:9)&#8230;but for the ungodly.  But this dare not be understood without qualification, as though the righteous should live without the law&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Then he (the Holy Spirit) employs the law to instruct the regenerate out of it and to show and indicate to them in the 10 Commandments what the acceptable will of God is (Rom. 12:2) and in what good works, which God has prepared beforehand, they should walk (Eph.2:10)&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Believers, furthermore, require the teaching of the law in connection with their good works, because otherwise they can easily imagine that their works and life are perfectly pure and holy.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Hence we reject and condemn, as pernicious and contrary to Christian discipline and true godliness, the erroneous doctrine that the law &#8230;is not to be urged upon Christians and true believers but only upon unbelievers, non-Christians, and the unrepentant.&#8221;</p>
<p>It seems that the regenerated Christian is certainly not UNDER the law, but rather IN the law, i.e. she has the law written on her heart and freely obeys because she, having been led by the law to Christ, enjoys vicariously His perfect righteousness and, having the Holy Spirit, is guided by the Law and is able to offer up perfect sacrifices and good works which are acceptable to God BECAUSE SHE HAS GOD&#8217;S GRACE AND BELIEVES.</p>
<p><a href="#comment-10405" rel="nofollow">@Jeff </a></p>
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		<title>By: Pr. Tom Fast</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10410</link>
		<dc:creator>Pr. Tom Fast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10410</guid>
		<description>&quot;Stanley Hauerwas has said that modern Protestantism has been the only form of Christianity in history to suppose that  one could be a Christian by virtue of things which happen entirely inside one&#039;s head.  This supposition is true of modern Protestantism&#039;s conservative and liberal versions alike---here Friedrich Schleiermacher and Dwight L. Moody basically agree.&quot;

David Yeago
Sacramental Lutheranism at the End of the Modern Age

It seems there&#039;s much more at stake here than merely a disagreement over the third use of the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Stanley Hauerwas has said that modern Protestantism has been the only form of Christianity in history to suppose that  one could be a Christian by virtue of things which happen entirely inside one&#8217;s head.  This supposition is true of modern Protestantism&#8217;s conservative and liberal versions alike&#8212;here Friedrich Schleiermacher and Dwight L. Moody basically agree.&#8221;</p>
<p>David Yeago<br />
Sacramental Lutheranism at the End of the Modern Age</p>
<p>It seems there&#8217;s much more at stake here than merely a disagreement over the third use of the law.</p>
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		<title>By: ptmccain</title>
		<link>http://cyberbrethren.com/2010/02/07/are-lutherans-antinomian-some-are-but-genuine-lutheranism-is-not/comment-page-1/#comment-10408</link>
		<dc:creator>ptmccain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cyberbrethren.com/?p=5192#comment-10408</guid>
		<description>Jeff, you raise an interesting point. I guess one way to respond to your questions, is with a question. Why didn&#039;t Paul stop at Romans 6:11? Why did he write beyond that and go on to describe the Christian life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, you raise an interesting point. I guess one way to respond to your questions, is with a question. Why didn&#8217;t Paul stop at Romans 6:11? Why did he write beyond that and go on to describe the Christian life?</p>
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