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It’s Not Just About Homosexuality

August 24th, 2010
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A good video making an important point. There will be the temptation among people  who are swayed by emotional arguments to think that the homosexuality issue in the Church is just about homosexuality and does not involve anything else. Check it out:

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Categories: Homosexuality
  1. Amy
    August 24th, 2010 at 08:46 | #1

    I don’t like this guy’s delivery — I really dislike sarcasm in such important discussions, and his every word is dripping with it. But I do like what he says under all that affectedness. I do wonder where people get the idea that they can just change Scripture to suit themselves. If that’s how they want to play it, why bother with a Bible at all? Why bother with Christ? Why not just write your own book and claim it to be truth and forget about all this faux-Christian posturing?

  2. Rev. Mark Schroeder
    August 24th, 2010 at 14:07 | #2

    @Amy
    2 Timothy 3: 1–5: “…But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal,not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.”

    Amy, I think the clincher in the Text above is all about the “appearance of godliness”, complete with clerics in the video, is the answer to your questions: appearances. The show of godliness gives the veneer that it is all “okay”, approved, even ‘blessed’. But why do they (and everyone of us at times) want the veneer of false piety,citing ‘Jesus’ and the Bible and the Church? Because deep down inside they know it’s plain wrong, sinful and unclean: whatever the ‘it’ of sin is. Since the Law is written into the very warp and woof of our souls we know it’s all wrong, even to the point of insisting publically wrong is right, sin is good, darkness is light: no sin, so I can feel good about myself, AND OTHERS CAN TOO. They want the justification of ungodliness not of the ungodly. And indeed, the last verse of Judges is right on target: “In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” There is no King, no Lord in the land of appearances, shadow, ambiguity and so everyone is a law unto them selves (see Romans 2: 14-16 ESV): and there is no Savior. It’s really sad and maybe you are correct: not a venue for sarcasm when so much as stake, as Luther would say, in this “new slaughter of souls”.

  3. Jim
    August 24th, 2010 at 17:45 | #3

    I love it! However, I understand Amy’s concern about the host. This 40-something year old tries too hard to dress and act like a “cool” 15 year old, but he ends up looking like a fool. If you can ignore his appearance, the forced sarcasm, and the vain attempts to look “cool,” his critique does make sense.

    Listen closely to the phrase “God is Still Speaking.” Which denomination employs that slogan? Here is the source of the group being interviewed:

    http://www.ucc.org/god-is-still-speaking/

    Pastor McCain: I especially enjoyed reading the reactions by the apostate Lutheran pastors (ELCA, LCMC, CORE, NALC) to your post on the ALPB “Your Turn” Forum Online. Regarding LCMC, CORE, NALC: These organizations are dangerous frauds, as they lead people to believe they have broken away from liberal protestant ELCA theology, even though they have not. They believe 100% in ELCA doctrine minus the endorsement of homosexual clergy. All of them employ historical criticism aka, higher criticism when reading the bible, so why should your post offend them. This is what they believe. The historical-critical method led to homosexuality being embraced. Perhaps these liberal Lutheran pastors are offended that someone like you publicly identified their agenda. Faux-Christian posturing, indeed!

  4. August 24th, 2010 at 20:38 | #4

    I had a hard time following the arguments of the “progressive” Christians featured in the video. One moment they claim to be open to all ideas, including (presumably) traditional Christianity that holds homosexuality to be a sin. The next moment they claim that Jesus is a “revolutionary” who has come to overthrow traditional Christianity, and that anyone who argues that humanity is fallen and needs a Savior is intellectually inferior to their enlightened anthropological understanding.

    As someone who witnessed (and participated in to a small extent) the ELCA’s debate about homosexuality, what you see in the video is exactly how most proponents of the radical changes argued. The typical conversation that I had with ELCA supporters went something like this:

    Me: I believe that homosexuality is immoral, and attempts to justify homosexual behavior is not supported by the Scriptures.
    ELCA supporter: Why do you hate gays and lesbians so much?
    Me: I do not hate gays and lesbians!
    ELCA supporter: Are you calling me a liar? Why are you smearing my basic humanity like that?
    Me: I did no such thing!
    ELCA supporter: You are being so judgmental and hateful! Is this what Jesus (if She existed) would want? How can you call yourself a Christian?

    And so on. The above conversation is an exaggeration – but only a very slight one. Pretty much every conversation that I had on the subject of homosexuality with supporters of the ELCA’s decision went like that, and after a time I simply gave up. Intellectually, it is not very edifying to see the kind of emotionally immature reasoning we saw in the video from the “progressives”. But if you look at much of our secular politics, I think you will see that their tactics of attack, weave, attack, deflect, attack are very common.

  5. Bob Gruener
    August 25th, 2010 at 09:42 | #5

    The speaker is advocating not only a theological point of view but also an attitude, and the attitude is certainly reproachable. I consider it highly inappropriate given the seriousness of the subject. How does “Love your neighbor as yourself” apply here?

    There are constructive times and ways to shed light on error, and even to condemn it. But it seems that among some who are convinced of their own rectitude, finger pointing is a shared pastime. One problem with perpetuating a critical spirit is that we reap what we sow.

  6. Jim
    August 25th, 2010 at 12:40 | #6

    Is it just me, or did anyone else have the “move that bus, move that bus” chant running through their heads as they were watching the video. Someone might mistake the host for a “Transforming Churches Network” dude, I mean – pastor. Well hey, since this is a YouTube video, I am certain the presentation can be remade in a more (*ahem*) tasteful manner.

    I do wonder….. Won’t liberal Lutheran denominations such as the ELCA (and LCMC, CORE, NALC) slowly splinter, shrink and fade away within the next 20 years to the point of irrelevance. It is important to let the public know what these “Lutheran” denominations believe. How else to distinguish their “progressive Christian” doctrine from confessional Lutheran doctrine.

    This post leaves me with another concern. What is the point in the LCMS and TAALC cooperating in externals with the ELCA? Regardless of denomination, churches that conduct missions and charity work hope to see that the people helped would be motivated to join their church. For example, when someone is helped by Lutheran World Relief, what kind of Lutheran should that person become. Is the LCMS indirectly enabling the assisted via joint missions/relief efforts to join the ELCA.

    A duplicate of the above post can be found on the ALPB “Your Turn” Forum Online:

    http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=3181.0

    So many posters complain endlessly about a church denomination that will not repent, and few of them realize that the issue at hand is “not just about homosexuality.” Off the ELCA splinter groups go to create their own versions of an ELCA that had once existed in July, 2009. Wouldn’t it be a lot easier and less time-consuming to find an LCMS or TAALC church and be done with it.

  7. andrew
    August 25th, 2010 at 19:38 | #7

    The thought that popped into my head is “Where is the Gospel?”

    Realizing you can’t include everything in a 4 min presentation, but the “progressive” pastors deny the Gospel by first denying the Law. Is this not, effectively, telling the drowning sinner he should be happy breathing water? But if the answer is to defend the Law without proclaiming Gospel, is this not throwing the drowning sinner an anchor?

    To the drowning sinner it doesn’t matter much which way the ship is turning if he is not in it.

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