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The Reformed are Aiming at Planting Calvinism Back in Germany

August 28th, 2010
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Watch this video. American Presbyterians are aiming at planting Reformed congregations back in Germany. Watch this video and notice how lacking an articulation of the Gospel actually is. Notice particularly the first several minutes where not once is the name of Christ mentioned, and only God is referred to and his glory. The word “Gospel” is mentioned but not articulated. Typical of Calvinism, unfortunately.

I resent how Calvinists continue to try to coop Martin Luther for their cause. We all know how vigorously Luther rejected the Reformed view of the Lord’s Supper, among many other views. I understand why the Calvinists must play Lutheran hymns, since their own tradition produced no music of any value in Germany during the Reformation era, but simply using “A Mighty Fortress” as a soundtrack for a video does not in any way give them any right to imply that they are somehow the legitimate heirs of Luther’s Reformation.

In the video they make the claim that there is no denomination in Germany that can claim to be a legitimate heir of the Reformation. This is quite an offensive statement, that they made, no doubt out of simple ignorance, but nonetheless truly unfortunate. The Independent Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany is this very church body!

Let’s be clear about something. Calvinism is not a faithful proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is not an authentic, genuine and true presentation of the Reformation, but an unfortunate deformation of it.

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Categories: Calvinism
  1. D. Philip Veitch
    August 28th, 2010 at 18:29 | #1

    This is stupid and puerile. You post publicly and embarrassingly. Paul, take your knocks publicly. As if the Reformed Confessions “don’t articulate the Gospel.” This is just plain whining.

    • August 28th, 2010 at 19:43 | #2

      No, it is embarassing for ignorant Reformed clergymen to be producing a video containing such utter falsehoods about there being “no” Reformation churches in Germany today. They should be ashamed of themselves and it is they who now have to “take their knocks” publicly. As for not articulating the Gospel, sorry, but they did not. They used the name of God several times, and talked about His glory, but did not actually proclaim it. That’s the problem.

  2. Richard
    August 28th, 2010 at 19:08 | #3

    Hmmm . . . the Gospel is not mentioned in the first several minutes because it is made up of verses from “A Mighty Fortress.” I lived in Germany for almost twenty years–and the quotes about the dearth of the Gospel there is spot-on. The mission to Germany is a ministry of the PCA–a denomination which is faithful to the Gospel. Maybe we can pray for the ministry–and that the Gospel might be spread instead of limiting ourselves to verbal brickbats?

    • August 28th, 2010 at 19:39 | #4

      I don’t disagree with what was said about the problems in Germany, but the “Reformed” have no business implying that there is no longer any sort of Gospel witness in Germany. That was the most obnoxious and offensive part of the video, along with never articulating the Gospel, not to mention not even referring to Christ in the opening part of the video. Talk about God and His Glory is not articulating the good news of Jesus Christ. Sorry.

  3. john m. auxier
    August 28th, 2010 at 19:14 | #5

    The Gospel is not the lutheran view of the Lord’s supper. And I’m pretty sure it has nothing to do with how many times you say “jesus”.I happen to know a brother who is with one of these groups going over to germany and other countries in europe.Germany is TOTALLY dead spiritually and this happened during the watch of the LUTHERAN state church.Don’t complain that God is sending someone else to do the job of preaching there now.

    • August 28th, 2010 at 19:41 | #6

      John, that you would say Germany is “totally spiritually dead” again reveals the ignorance and abject hubris of the Reformed making the video. If you, and others, would but bother to check into your facts you would see there is a small, but thriving, Lutheran church independent of the state there. When all that can be said in the opening of the video, containing, by the way a horrible translation of A Mighty Fortress, is something about God and His glory, but not a word about Jesus Christ, that’s a major problem.

  4. Richard
    August 28th, 2010 at 19:57 | #7

    Pastor McCain is right–there is a small group of faithful Lutherans–the SELK–and even Lutherans in the state church who are faithful in an increasingly apostate state church. Saying Germany is spiritually dead is wrong. We can and should pray for a faithful witness there. Sorry if I implied anything more, Pastor McCain.

  5. D. Philip Veitch
    August 28th, 2010 at 20:45 | #8

    Paul, this is pathetic pleading on your part.

    It may play to your constituency, but inflammatory words like “ignorant,” “abject,” “ignorant Reformed clergymen,” etc., and that the Reformed Confessions do not articulate the Gospel is just plain irresponsible. That’s the larger imputation of your hasty and ill-advised words. To post a clip with the larger accusation–no Gospel, all glory–without the Reformed Confessional context is ludicrous.

    24 Aug 2010 (from 1572), we just commemorated the slaughter of 1000′s of French Huguenots, “for the Gospel,” Paul. This Reformed and Confessional Anglican is preparing to remember the martyrs of 1555-1556, “for the Gospel.” Your contempt is public.

    You’ll just have to take another left jab for the recklessness.

  6. D. Philip Veitch
    August 28th, 2010 at 20:55 | #9

    Go ahead, Paul, confess your contempt for Reformed Theology. Be honest. It’s evident. Then, we can move on, but we can go mano a mano, theologically, exegetically, and historically. Some of us will not be buffaloed by these hasty, imprudent, and nit-picking observations.

  7. D. Philip Veitch
    August 28th, 2010 at 21:02 | #10

    Mr. McCain says:

    “Let’s be clear about something. Calvinism is not a faithful proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is not an authentic, genuine and true presentation of the Reformation, but an unfortunate deformation of it.”

    Let’s just be clear. This is bigoted tub-thumping ignorance. Let THAT be clear, Paul. Take the jabs that you so richly deserve. Dare you publish this?

  8. Charles L. Baker
    August 28th, 2010 at 22:17 | #11

    Paul: Just a couple of observations: I agree that it is out of order to say that there are no Reformation Churches in Germany. Heidelberg is a mess, to say the least. I am concerned with the PCA introducing non-liturgical Puritanical innovations to historic and Biblical worship.
    Will they be importing American gnostic religion? I pray not!

    That translation of “A Mighty Fortress” is horrible! Agreed! Knowing something of Puritan innovations, I fail to see how made up services where the congregation only listens and sings a couple of songs is God- Centered! It will certainly help them if they use a solid Lutheran “Hauptgottensdienst!”

    Concerning the Gospel, the 16th Century Reformation confessions all confess justification as imputation of Christ’s Righteousness by grace through faith alone. Somewhere along the line, it has been missed that the first Reformation Churches were Lutheran.

  9. August 28th, 2010 at 23:31 | #12

    The statement in the video is that there is “No Reformed church or denomination that can claim to be a legitimate heir of the Reformation.” The guy is talking about the absence of Calvinist churches or denominations, not Lutheran churches or denominations. Also, the guy says that around 1 percent of Germans are evangelicals — I don’t know whether he means U.S.-style evangelicals, but he does say that there is a true, but very small, Christian presence in Germany today, all of which is entirely consistent with your point.

    Further, they do not simply say that their movement is a movement of the Reformation inaugurated by Luther, they go on to say that there was a second, “Reformed” Reformation.

    I have zero problem with rejecting the ostensible need for a “second” Reformation or Reformed errors, but it seems to me that you are stretching to take offense from the video.

  10. D. Philip Veitch
    August 29th, 2010 at 00:21 | #13

    Wisely, Paul, you “have struck the tent” and have stood down from your public insolence. It is noted. It is wise from your end. Don’t try it again or you’ll get called on it. It is noted that you have stood down and cannot/will not go mano a mano. Shrunken gonads, Paul.

    I heartily embrace vast sections of the FC, but not all. Time that you acknowledged something wider than the LCMS.

    Time for the tribal Lutheran War Dance to end re: Reformed Confessionalism. Way, way over the top.

  11. D. Philip Veitch
    August 29th, 2010 at 01:54 | #14

    Coward. Wimp. Shrunken sack.

  12. August 29th, 2010 at 02:29 | #15

    Pastor McCain,
    when you say I should “bother to check my facts” concerning a true Lutheran presence, that is quite an insinuation and I do think it is you who are being misled. You might be part of something like a “confessional Lutheran stronghold” in the U.S., but the SELK (Idependent Lutheran Church) of Germany certainly is not – and hasn’t been in many decades. Saying that it is “a small, but thriving, Lutheran church independent of the state” reveals one of two things: either your own ignorance about the true state of the SELK in Germany, or (which would be worse) your own ignorance about the Gospel. The SELK is struggling with liberalism on many fronts (theology, ministry, ecclesiology). And while it might be a “confessional Lutheran church” on paper, in reality it is deconstructed Lutheranism and not a whole lot of “true Lutheran Gospel”. I find it funny that I am a German, live there, work there and know the lay of the land, but you lecture me on checking the facts. I truly hope the Lutheran church you belong to does not REALLY compare to the SELK, for your own sake and for the sake of the Gospel.
    If you believe there is a true Reformation church in Germany, the burden of proof is on you…sadly!

    • August 29th, 2010 at 06:46 | #16

      If you watch the video you will see/hear them make the assertion that there is no church body in Germany that can claim to be a legitimate heir to the Reformation, that, and never articulating the Gospel, but merely speaking the word “Gospel” and rarely mentioning Christ, nor describing what he has done for us, gives me great concern.

      You are obviously quite enormously ignorant of the SELK.

  13. D. Philip Veitch
    August 29th, 2010 at 03:05 | #17

    U r a blustery, supremacistic windbag who issues his illiterate thumperies about Reformed Theology, but, like a cowering lad, cannot take rejoinders. Publish the rebukes, lad. “Man up, ” Paul. “Fleet up,” son. Luther himself would dislike these shrunken nads.

    U bluster to your constituency, but like a cowering lad, with shrunken gonads, you falter before an equal and greater force, namely, me.

  14. D. Philip Veitch
    August 29th, 2010 at 03:19 | #18

    Laughing at the puerility first posted re: the puerility. “It is what it is is.” “It was what it is,” puerility. U look pretty disgusting, supremacistic, ignorant and famously hubristical. A “cow fart” to cite Luther. “Hot drippings from under the pig’s tail” are appropriate to this supremacistic, ignorant and arrogant hutzpah.

    Paul, sell these bathing suits to other Lutheran Eskimoesi in the market for such, but not to Reformational men. We’re not in that stupid market.

    “Man up,” laddie, “man up.” Get a pair, Paul.

  15. D. Philip Veitch
    August 29th, 2010 at 03:56 | #19

    Over nine hours, lad, big Paul, your severally shrivelled nads are on display. Quite ugly and quite shrivelled. Not the stuff of manhood, Paul. Sell your nonsense to other carivaneers and carnivcal barkers of Confessional insipidity and shallowness. You are a noted man, but not for valour nor depth.

    Your Reformed, quite English, and very Anglican friend who is not in the market for Lutheran supremacism.

    Veitch

  16. August 29th, 2010 at 05:47 | #20

    Rev. McCain, all I can say is wow in regards to the comments not being published. DPV has taken to Facebook to post all his nice insults about you, and frankly, I find them such an unChristian nonsense that I can understand why no one would what his type of ‘Reformed’ in their country, state, city, town or home. God Bless.

    • August 29th, 2010 at 06:48 | #21

      Actually, I just posted all his comments. They were simply pending moderation. I woke up this morning to his “delightful” stream of late night/early morning rants. I thought it would be good for everyone to see the kind of remarks made by one of the “Truly Reformed” types, whom, frankly, I do not believe represents any of the people on the video, and I’m sure they would be embarrassed by him.

  17. August 29th, 2010 at 06:58 | #22

    @Sebastian Heck

    Mr. Heck, thanks for confirming the validity of my post about your efforts. I’m appalled at your shocking ignorance about the SELK. But thanks for making your agenda perfectly clear. I will do all I can to oppose the efforts you are launching and warning my many colleagues in Germany about your work. The nation of Germany does not take too kindly to Americans trying to import their particular brands of the Faith into Germany.

  18. August 29th, 2010 at 08:10 | #23

    Thanks for telling me what “the nation of Germany” takes to. It seems you think of yourself as the German and of myself as the American. How funny. Actually, I (being the German here) should probably tell you what we Germans don’t “take to”… And it’s your rants! So thanks a lot. I’ve had my share of “Lutheranism” (so called) for the day (and year)! Auf wiedersehen!

    • August 29th, 2010 at 08:17 | #24

      Sebastian, you and your colleagues are misrepresenting Luther and conducting your work now in Germany in a deceptive manner. This is not God-pleasing. You have slandered the Independent Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany.

  19. Jason
    August 29th, 2010 at 13:33 | #25

    @john m. auxier
    “Watch of the Lutheran State Church”? This is historically inaccurate. Very few state churches in Germany are Lutheran. Most are “Union” churches. The Confessional Lutherans separated and were persecuted. They were some of the strongest Christian oposition against the Nazis. I recomend “The Fabricated Luther” by Uwe Siemon-Netto and “Modern Fascism: The threat to the judeo-christian worldview by Gene Veith.

  20. Jason
    August 29th, 2010 at 13:39 | #26

    @Jim
    There are Reformed free churches in Germany (Reformierte Gemeinde) but they are small. As for American evangelicalism they have Calvary Chapel which boasts congregations of over 1,000. I suspect they are people who would otherwise be in the EKD if it weren’t for the rank liberalism tollerated there.

  21. August 29th, 2010 at 15:06 | #27

    @ptmccain
    I’m just a Christian, and I’m embarrassed by him.

  22. James
    August 29th, 2010 at 15:10 | #28

    How does going to Germany, an established Catholic/Lutheran/Atheist country, help the PCA. The video is not geared for the atheists, so therefore, the PCA must be interested in “sheep stealing” church members of other denominations. Good luck, Calvinists, in trying to convince the Germans to give up drinking alcohol. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, the PCA should join the Union church in Germany. The Union church still exists:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Union_(Evangelical_Christian_Church)

    Isn’t the PCA suffering the same kinds of membership losses as the PCUSA? And if so, then where are the people going? Non-denominational churches are grounded in Calvinist theology. Is it safe to assume that they are abandoning Presbyterianism for the non-denominational, big box, seeker churches.

    The American South is the stronghold of the PCA, so perhaps they should work harder at strengthening their churches where they are planted instead of engaging in sheep stealing elsewhere.

  23. August 29th, 2010 at 16:38 | #29

    I listened again. The American at the beginning of the video did not say there was no legitimate and conservative Lutheran denomination in Germany. He said there was no “Reformed” presence there that is conservative and preaching the true Gospel. Huge difference. He was obviously referring to a Calvinist presence and not to a conservative Lutheran presence. He could be wrong. Maybe there is a Calvinist denomination there that is preaching the Gospel?

    As for claiming Luther, most Evangelicals I know claim Luther as the father of the Protestant Reformation. I graduated from a Pentecostal college and even Pentecostals acknowledge Luther as the father of the Protestant Reformation! Why would it surprise you that Anglicans and Presbyterians own Luther as the father of the Reformation? Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is the sine qua non of a true church preaching the true Gospel. The law and Gospel distinction is one recognized by Reformed Anglicans and Presbyterians. It’s also recognized by the Dutch Reformed and the information in the video is simply pointing out that the Heidelberg Catechism originated in Germany.

    So what’s the problem, Paul? Surely you’re not going to disfellowship conservative and Bible believing Anglicans and Presbyterians and Dutch Reformed simply because we do not agree on certain secondary issues like consubstantiation and the divine decrees?

    May the peace of God be with you,

    Charlie

    • August 29th, 2010 at 18:25 | #30

      You need to listen more closely. They say that there is no longer any denomination in Germany that can claim to be a legitimate heir of the Reformation, not merely Reformed theology. Quite clearly said.

  24. KS
    August 29th, 2010 at 18:29 | #31

    I have been researching and reading about confessional Lutheranism for the past year as well as Reformed Theology. I have begun attending a local assembly of Lutheran believers. Rev. McCain, the comments here (yours and some of the others) do not befit biblical Christianity. There is a lack of grace, and much ad hominem attacks. I’ve been researching and studying both Reformed and Lutheran churches after becoming concerned with the lack of theological depth of evangelicalism. If this is what Lutheranism promotes, then I’m concerned.

    Response: You should take up your concerns with the rabid Calvinist posting comments here, first, and find out “if this is what Calvinism promotes”

  25. James
    August 29th, 2010 at 20:01 | #32

    I would be far more impressed if the Presbyterians were to convert the millions of muslims residing in Germany and elsewhere. This would be of far more value than engaging in “sheep stealing” from other denominations.

    • August 29th, 2010 at 20:06 | #33

      Jim, to be fair here, I’m sure the Presbyterians are intent on reaching people who do not have any faith and attend church not at all, which would comprise the vast majority of Germans today.

  26. Sven Wagschal
    August 30th, 2010 at 00:20 | #34

    Charly J. Ray wrote:
    “So what’s the problem, Paul? Surely you’re not going to disfellowship conservative and Bible believing Anglicans and Presbyterians and Dutch Reformed simply because we do not agree on certain secondary issues like consubstantiation and the divine decrees?”

    I think this is the key problem here, since many Calvinist do not seem to be aware that there is and never was any fellowship between Reformed and Lutheran Christians. What for them are only “secondary issues” (which is typical for the Reformed approach from the very beginning) is for the Lutherans the primary isssue which aims directly into the heart of the gospel as gross, unbiblical hairesis. Therefore Reformed where never aknowledged as being in fellowship with Lutherans and are not welcome at Lutherans altars (for their own good). No need for Rev. McCain to disfellew anyone where no fellowship is involved.

  27. August 30th, 2010 at 02:53 | #35

    Frankly, I’m appalled at the rate in which the gentleman reverted to using male genitalia as a point of refutation. Speaking the truth in love? I think not.

  28. August 30th, 2010 at 06:54 | #36

    @ptmccain

    Paul, since I’m familiar with the Presbyterians I can without equivocation tell you that what you are attributing to them is not what they meant. Imprecise language in a video should not be held to the same academic standards as a piece of formal theological writing. By “Reformation” they obviously meant a Calvinist and Reformed witness. Perhaps they were overstating the case but I think it is uncharitable of you to create a straw man based on an imprecise statement made in the video.

    I regularly visit Lutheran churches and take communion there although I am as Calvinist as any Presbyterian. Why? Because I find the Presbyterian liturgy is too low and too broadly Evangelical or too Puritan. There is no confession of sin, no reading of the law, and no Gospel absolution.

    Also, I prefer wine over grape juice and crackers. Traditions of men should not take precedence over the institution of Christ in Scripture where bread and wine are the required elements of the sacrament.

    You’ll have to forgive my friend, Phil. He’s been in the Marines too long:)

    At any rate, I think it is basically a misunderstanding of the intent of the video. I can assure you that the PCA is not out to supplant the conservative Lutheran witness in Germany.

    By the way, I recently read “The Blueprint of the Gospel” by your friend Todd Wilken. I quoted it extensively in a recent debate with several Anglo-Catholics and Roman Catholics. The Lutheran presence here on the internet is an absolutely necessary one. Thanks for your contribution as well, Paul.

    May the peace of God be with you!

    Charlie

    http://reasonablechristian.blogspot.com

  29. Jon D. Payne
    August 30th, 2010 at 13:01 | #37

    Dear Rev. McCain,

    Our congregation (Grace PCA in Douglasville, GA) and presbytery (Northwest Georgia Presbytery) are – by God’s sovereign grace and power – joyfully committed to the proclamation of the Gospel of our crucified and risen Savior in our own region and “to the ends of the earth.” We believe that the Great Commission commands us to go forth into all the world to preach the Gospel, to baptize, to make disciples and to trumpet forth the entirety of God’s Law and Promises in Scripture. We believe – unlike many well-intentioned, but misguided evangelicals – that this Great Commission should not have as its ethos a kind of “big tent” revivalistic bent, but rather the planting of faithful churches, churches where God’s law and promises, judgement and salvation are clearly and faithfully set forth every Lord’s Day through the simple, ordinary and “foolish” means of preaching, water, bread and wine. Our goal, as suggested by one of your readers, is not to proselytize Christians from other churches. On the contrary, our goal is to preach the gospel to all who will listen, pray that the Spirit attends His Word and brings life to the spiritually dead, and establish churches where Christ’s redeemed will receive life-long spiritual nourishment and oversight.

    Pastor McCain, I was baptized, catechized and confirmed in the LCMS in Santa Clara, California. I also attended an LCMS school for most of my youth. Very often I thank God for my baptism, and for the foundational doctrine that I learned from my parents and my pastors/teachers in the Lutheran Church. And though I now firmly and joyfully hold to the Reformed and Presbyterian Confession (expressed in the Westminster Standards and the Three Forms of Unity, which, as you may know, includes the Heidelberg Catechism, 1563), I continue to read, learn from, and greatly admire the life and theology of Martin Luther. In fact, peering down from the walls of my study – and our Elders’ meeting room – are not only portraits of Calvin, Knox, Owen and Westminster Abby, but also Luther before the Council at Worms, Luther with friends standing over his translation of the Bible, and a 16th c. cartoon of Luther preaching the Gospel before a teetering Pope Leo X. In addition, my little boy is affectionately named Hans Martin. Suffice it to say, as a Bible believing Protestant, who – by grace through God-given faith – rejoices in the recovery of the doctrine of justification during the early days of the 16th c., I claim Luther as a Father and hero of the Faith. … though not an infallible one … as all Protestants should. As you know, the first 14 points of doctrine were agreed upon at Marburg. There is also much for us to agree upon and rejoice in as Lutherans and Reformed today, even if our ecclesiology may never be reconciled in this life. It’s my opinion that Luther’s Philip was, in some ways, a unifying, healing agent in those days of Protestant discord, attempting to bring Lutherans, Calvinists and Zwinglians together. Even though the Gnesio-Lutherans – and others – chose not to follow, I appreciated his efforts nonetheless.

    Dear brother, the video that was produced for Reformation 2 Germany never stated that there were “no denominations in Germany that can legitimately claim to be an heir of the Protestant Reformation.” Rather, if you – and some of your readers – would have listened more carefully, you would have heard Pastor Heck state rightly that there are “no REFORMED churches / denominations (i.e. Connectional Reformed Churches in a denomination) in Germany that can legitimately claim to be an heir of the Protestant Reformation.” Perhaps asking for clarification before unnecessarily attacking our ministry would have been a better approach.

    If the 200 congregations of the SELK are, as you say, faithfully proclaiming the Gospel, then that certainly gives us reason to rejoice. However, in a country of almost 83 million people, where the State Church is extraordinarily liberal and the roots of secularism have spread deep and wide, there is plenty of room, I believe, for both Bible believing Lutherans AND Bible believing Reformed to reach out to the lost and establish Gospel-heralding churches.

    The reformation work of Fredrick III, Ursinus and Olevianus may have missed your historical radar. Or perhaps you’ve forgotten that the Reformed have a precious heritage in the Palatinate, and elsewhere in Germany? In other words, Germany has more than just a Lutheran heritage. The Heidelberg Catechism, published in 1563, it could be argued, defines the gospel as well as any 16th or 17th c. Protestant confession of faith. If you’ve never read it, I would warmly encourage you to do so. Also, this may help you to show more Christian charity towards us in the future … unless, that is, our differences over the sacraments will forever make it impossible for you to give us the sincere right hand of fellowship this side of heaven.

    Finally, I would like to address your uncharitable and hyper-critical words concerning the fact that we did not “expound upon the gospel” in the video presentation. The R2G presentation was not created to be an outreach tool, but rather as an informational resource for sister confessional churches to learn about the work of R2G. Pastor Heck’s faithful, Gospel-trumpeting sermons are on the website for all German speakers to hear — by the way, preached by a German, for Germans – with no plan to “import the idiosyncrasies of American Presbyterianism.” The video is not a sermon. Even so, we do hope and pray that it will communicate our commitment to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is also the Gospel of Luther, Ursinus, & Calvin, in Heidelberg and beyond.

    My brother in Christ, there is so much more that could be said here. But I will close with this: 1) I am disheartened by some of the abrasive rhetoric and uncharitable assumptions that have been posted on this space by both Lutherans and the Reformed. 2) I would sincerely like for this “conversation” to end on a positive note, that is, with Christian love, humility, and charity, in the Spirit of our Lord.

    Sincerely in Christ,

    Rev. Jon D. Payne

    • August 30th, 2010 at 13:09 | #38

      Jon, Thank you for your post. Here’s the quote that I continue to believe is offensive: “There’s hardly anyone here preaching the Gospel. Today’s there no Reformed Church or denomination in Germany that can claim to be a legitimate heir of the Reformation Church in Germany.” The error in the quote is assuming that it is the “Reformed” movement that is, in fact, the “legimate heir” of the Reformation.

  30. Richard
    August 30th, 2010 at 14:36 | #39

    And on behalf of the Reformed here, I want to apologize on behalf of my Reformed brothers for some of the overblown rhetoric. I am sorry.

  31. Tankerous Morose
    August 30th, 2010 at 16:35 | #40

    @ptmccain
    Rev. McCain,
    Would you be able to take your panties out of their obvious state of wadding if the video stated “…no Reformed church or REFORMED denomination in Germany…”? If so I will personnaly contact the Rev. Jon Payne and have the word “REFORMED” edited in. Maybe then, like Luther, in the presence of your Reformed brothers, you can stop banging the table with your shoe and place it back on your foot. Assuming that you can remove your foot from your oral cavity.

    • August 30th, 2010 at 19:31 | #41

      @Tankerous Morose
      First, you spelled personnaly wrong.
      Second, sure, that would be a fine edit, but better still, have them make clear that they are talking about CALVIN’s Reformation, not Luther’s. They are by no means the same.

  32. Richard
    August 30th, 2010 at 17:50 | #42

    Sigh.

  33. J. Neil Barham
    August 31st, 2010 at 14:37 | #43

    @D. Philip Veitch

    My dear brothers,

    Bretheren, Forbear!

    As a deeply committed lifelong Calvinist, steeped from birth in the traditions of Knox, Owen, Edwards, Dabney, Warfield, and Van Til, I cannot express the depth of my gratitude to my Lutheran brothers for their love of our common Reformation heritage. Like Calvin before me, like all truly Reformed Christians, I look with admiration and awe at the massive achievements of Luther and his students, who in the providence of God recovered the beauties of the Gospel form the darkness where they had been nearly lost for a thousand years. Differences of detail have emerged in the centuries since Luther, but we still share the HEART of the Gospel — the mighty Solas of the Reformation.

    My dear Philip, I sympathize with your defense of our Reformed heritage; it is our beloved birthright, and it is to be cherished as our soul and our life. But please, dear brother, adorn the truth with grace. Your name-calling and hostility do nothing but widen the breach between ourselves and our near spiritual kin. I, too, disagree with our brother Paul in some of his statements, but I plead with you to repent of your angry, nearly obscene polemic, and seek to win your brother to the truth with kindness and love. It is not right that we should eviscerate each other before a watching world. I grieve and weep, and I am sure God does too, when his glorious truth is smeared by association with such conduct as appears in these last few messages from you. Speak the truth in love, dear brother. Come, let us REASON together. A day is soon coming when you will know him in eternity, and on that day you will love him with an intensity that you cannot now imagine, even for your dearest child. Correct him, yes; help him understand the truth more clearly, certainly; but it is not yours to pour out scatological vengeance upon another member of our beloved body of Christ.

    Your brother,

    Neil

  34. August 31st, 2010 at 16:15 | #44

    I don’t want to discuss whether Reformed are “brethren” or not. What I am concerned about is the question if there are churches in Germany that really can claim to be heirs of the Reformation. And, yes, I believe that there is at least one small church body that can claim this. It is the Independendent Evangelical-Lutheran Church (SELK). I am a pastor of this church and I can assure all of you that we stand faithful to the Confessions of the Lutheran Church.
    Blessings, Jörg

  35. Richard
    August 31st, 2010 at 16:25 | #45

    Gottes Segen, Herr Pfarrer Ackermann. Wir beten fur Sie und die Kirche in Deutschland.

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