It seems that these polarities of worship style have several characteristics in common. Both make the pastor the center of attention: what he says and does. Both elevate outward forms that are contrary to historic Lutheran theology and practice despite various claims to the contrary. Both seek to establish their validity by experiential touchstones – one using highly crafted modern stage techniques, the other highly crafted vintage stage techniques. And, as you rightly observe, regardless of some manner of conversion and faith that might be present in each, both have forsaken the balance of freedom and form the Lutheran Confessions and historic Lutheran liturgy have preserved.

It always strikes me in pictures or videos like this, or when I end up at something like it myself, that quite apart from the “style” and “reverence” and textual critiques we hear so much, look at the physical placement of things. In “contemporary” worship, the musicians are up front much like a concert hall or a bar that has live entertainment. Organs and choirs are not — the performers and instruments are not seen, only their music heard. It seems to me that speaks to what is the real focus as much as the content itself.

Sadly, this is not alone. Another, listed on our synod’s .org: http://www.thealley.org/

This video was so relevant! Err…I think that’s what he was going for, anyways… …To Rev. Hobbie: I think the temptation to make the pastor the center of attention isn’t tied to worship practices, but our sinfulness. I’m thankful that there are aspects of liturgical worship that aren’t particularly my favorite. It reminds me that it’s not about me. But those who have come before us instituted/retained these things for our instruction in the articles of the faith. These things confess Christ. Just a few thoughts.

Rev. Hobbie,

Could you give an example of a “high church” pastor or congregation in the LCMS where the pastor is “the center of attention,” and who has “elevate[d] outward forms that are contrary to historic Lutheran theology”?

As has been noted, the previous example (Zion Detroit) turned out to be an internet remnant of a pastor who left years ago.

Regards,
Christopher Esget+

If it ever was funny, it’s not anymore, Paul.

ahem, Rose chasubles, PTMcC.

The word is”roseate.” As in roseate spoonbill.

As we all know, the princes decided the particulars of the church orders that would pertain within their little Furstentums. And Luther agreed, stating that if Duke Julius of Brauschweig-Luneburg wanted his clergy to wear three chausables, as the temple priests in Jerusalem were required to do, then let the Duke have what he wanted if it didn’t matter, and 1 or 3 chausables didn’t matter to Luther.

The problem in American Lutheranism has always been “who has the authority to make the decisions that don’t matter. Perhaps if we elected a prince of the adiaphora for life for all Lutherans worldwide, we would quit wasting theological time on cake-iceing time. That prince must be at least as well informed and as appreciative of church art, music, architechture, and style as Duke Julius was. Yeah, and let’s make the post hereditary and train the young princes for the position.

And, of course, the princelings would have to have the power of the sword for those enthusiats who need help in understaning they do not make decisions about the cake-iceing in the Duke’s church.

Now, for those of you who think cake-iceing is really a matter of indifference, tell the bride at your next wedding that the church council has dediced there will be none on her wedding cake. Just saying. It must have been so similar an issue to the art of the plasterers, wouldn’t you think?

This is a reply to @Pr. Seth Mierow : Just wanted to make a small correction, the Alley does list it’s LCMS affiliation on a document that is available on the website at http://www.thealley.org/downloads/pdf/5Solas.pdf

By the looks of it, this document is most likely available in print at the church or is displayed somewhere, but I am not sure of this. Either way, it is on the site.

I reside in the same district and state as this “church” and Lake Pointe is anything but a Lutheran church. It is a rock concert with a sermon. There is nothing that even closely resembles liturgy. The Lord’s Supper is not celebrated on Sundays but rather on Wed nights (I believe in Small group settings, though it has been sometime since I have had contact)

The pastor is a very charismatic guy that thinks he must be relevant, following in the CGM footsteps of, I believe, the Saddleback coaching network. He wants to be a “megachurch” pastor and this “church” has been touted as the fastest growing church in the district. It is quite the shame that this has infiltrated not only the Synod but this district as well.

What is high and low church really? As a Canadian, for me, this refers to the Anglican tradition and has not much to do with us Lutherans. We kept the liturgy while remaining flexible about it and striving for some regional uniformity… We never had a book that prescribed strict mandatory forms of worship. We have orders of worship (Agende). This means we do things for good order.
Some call me High Church because I like the liturgy and chant it, others call me Low Church because I’m flexible and am not strict about all the bodily movements and rubrics and sometimes I lead very informal services… Sometimes I wear chasubles, bow and cross myself… other times I don’t even wear vestments (services in the field in my uniform). I prefer to be called a Lutheran who puts Christ as the centre of worship by the Word and the sacraments. The liturgy and the hymns are the way we do that, but they are means not ends in themselves.
So why don’t we simply speak about being faithful to the Word in the way we worship? Or how unfaithful this or that other way is? I think it would further the reflection and discussion in a helpful way.

I wish I could say something positive about the web site. I can’t watch the sermon – my blood pressure is borderline high. There is a liturgy, and there are sacraments in places like these, but none of them have their origin in Holy Scripture.

When are we going to learn that neither our Lord Christ, St. Paul, St. Peter, or anyone else was relevant in the worldly sense of the term?

Oh, wait, I thought of a quote… No, maybe I better not.

I suppose I’m one of those “high church” Evangelical Catholic LCMS Pastors, but not part of the cohort usually associated with same in the LCMS. Always the renegade, I am far from the center of attention in the Liturgy. Beside the boy or girl acolyte, who are a lot cuter than I will ever be, there is a man or woman Lector reading the First and Second Lesson, the man or woman Cantor for the Psalm, a man or woman who leads the prayer petitions, the men and women who assist me in the distribution of the Holy Eucharist, and the men and women who are the Altar Committee before and after the Service. I’m the center of attention? Nope, and praise be Jesus Christ for that reality.

The video of Shaun Groves is a half hour long pitch for Compassion International. If you’ve ever had a guest representative for a service organization or charity visit your church this will sound very familiar. You can hear virtually the same thing from men wearing suits, men wearing dockers and a polo, or men wearing albs and stoles, i.e., ‘ we know what we’re saved from, but what are we saved for?’ If you’ve read read or heard anything by Rick Warren you’ll know straightaway where this presentation is going. Between minutes 6 and 10 he has what is more of a personal testimony than the gospel, and there are some errors in it, that most Lutherans and Lutheran Pastors would spot a mile away and not allow. As I was listening to his opening comments about growing up in the church, I couldn’t help but wonder if there isn’t some young man sitting there listening to him who 15 years from now will be on a stage mocking his clothing, hair and mannerisims. I’m sure he doesn’t teach his children to make fun of their elders or parents, but for the sake of a laugh he’ll do it in a church. Who knew Arminianism could be so cool?

I will take your word for it. I have enough problems with depression without watching Pastor Coolguy. BTW is it possible to make the captcha codes somewhat legible?

@Padre Dave Poedel, STS

@Padre Dave Poedel, STS
Well you would be if you were careful to keep the men and women separate in your church. Have you never climbed the stone ramps to the second level of Agia Sophia to see where the women worshiped, taking care not to be seen by the men from below? Und, how’s about St. Paul’s Wendish church in Serbin, Texas where the men sat in the galleries, leaving the ground floor to the women and children. The catholic christians are very careful to keep the women and men in their proper roles, often going so far as to physically separate them in the church buildings.

Let me suggest that you not allow your women to proceed beyong the altar screen, nor ever, ever, touch the altar itself. You might even do well to reinstitute the 40 days of uncleaness after the birth of a baby and its presentation in the church, remembering, of course, that girl babies should not be taken past the altar screen.

If only we’d follow these few gender specific traditions, we’d have so much less of hearing the voices of women in the church.

There are some who say that making people follow rules in small matters, keeps them further away from breaking the rules that really matter.

@Padre Dave Poedel, STS
Maybe you aren’t the center of attention, but the women certainly would be,
if you tried this in my congregation. [You could take it down a few streets to the next nearest "lcms" church, though, and it would really go over on the other side of town (the "high" side)]. ;o

Justin Martyr was martyred for his faith in 165 AD. His description of how Christians (Jews and Gentiles) gathered in Rome at that time is one of the oldest “orders of service” on record. It’s believed that what he describes happening among Roman Christians was the norm for Christians throughout the Empire during his time period. He wrote:

“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities in the country gather together to one place*, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, when the reader has ceased, the president [or nasi]* verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying “Amen.” [This means “we agree” or “let it be so."] And there is a distribution to each, and each participate in the food over which thanks have been given. And to those who are absent a portion is sent by deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who kindly assists the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds [imprisoned for their faith] and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is this first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.”

My privilege is to serve the Church. Mennonite, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Four Square, Lutheran. And what a wonderful education that is! How beautifully diverse the Body of Christ on earth!

And oh, the differences (many substantial and meaningful) between us too.

I often struggle with those differences and then I read Justin Martyr’s description of the early church’s gatherings and count only four things their meetings had in common.

1. Prayer

2. Eucharist/Communion

3. Collection for the poor

4. Exhortation

I am not Lutheran. I cannot speak to the differences between Lakepointe and historical Lutheran practices. And I am so sorry for my part in offending you all, my brothers and sisters in Christ. What I experienced at Lakepointe was another gathering of believers who regularly shoulder one another’s burdens in prayer, who care for the poor across the street and around the world, who hold the atonement of Christ as foundational to faith and unity and are exhorted from scripture.

It is SO SAD when we as Christians focus on the differences we have between denominations. My wife and I used to run a program for new immigrants to our country that talked to them about what Christianity was all about. When we got to the part that talked about denominations it was always so confusing to them (and to us) to have to explain why there were differences. We were always so careful to point out that each church really is only a different way to expressing our love to God. It grieves me so to see people saying that “this church isn’t Christian”, or “this church isn’t doing it right”, when it’s just our expression of that love. If we translated it to another example it would be like saying something like “all people should eat beef, and beef alone. There is no room for chicken-eaters, or vegetarians, or fish-eaters in our congregation.”

Martin Luther rebelled against the trappings of the mainline church of the time. He rightly pointed out that it is by FAITH that we are saved, not by the rituals we perform, or the deeds we do. It matters not whether we like hymns or contemporary songs. It doesn’t matter if the guitars are acoustic, or electric, or burned. God looks at our heart. If your worship comes from loud worship with drums and guitars, or from quiet piano, or loud organ, God doesn’t care. As long as you worship Him in spirit and in truth.

My father was Lutheren. My uncle is Catholic. Our old church is non-denominational. When we
left there recently we visited Baptists and Presbyterians, and non-denominational churches and we’ve now settled into a Pentecostal church that’s looking to become non-denominational. And you know what. We found God present in EVERY ONE of them!!